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Nomadic Crusades?
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Message 1.Β
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Thursday, 10th January 2008
Is it thought that the Medieval Crusades were nomadic in essence? were the pilgrimages to the holy land very similar to the nomads wish to return to their ancient lands?
The gypsies did so to northern India.
The Jews (with the greatest respect to these two groups) did so to their own land, but when the Christian tribes which had been migrating round europe for centuries were completely settled, they decided that they too wanted to RETURN to a HOLY land,which was NOT THEIRS AT ALL, nor had the EVER COME FROM IT.
Is that an accurate reflection of the change from
Nomadism to settled agricultural societies that occured during previous centuries or is that far too simple an intepretation of the human soul? -
Message 2
Posted by Killfacer (U8855584) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
you are clearly fairly confused on the subject, do some reseach before coming out with that werid stuff. It also seemed to turn into a rant about the "infidel" going to the holy land. Anyway alot of turks came from east of the holyland anyway. I assume by your name that your on some moral crusade but its thouroughly unimpressive.
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Message 3
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
Dai Hy Ba'th
To be honest, it's not particlarly clear what you are asking?
The Christians returned to the Holy land en masse (As there were already Christians present there) from Europe as it was the birth place of their religion...
It's a sweeping statement to suggest No Christian came from ther Holy land - and not true in the slightest... It could be argued that they had more right to be there than Invading Seljuk Turks? -
Message 4
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
... It should be pointed out that you're understanding of the spread of Christianity in Europe is a bit strange?
There were no Wandering christian tribes - Christianity was adopted by The Roman Empire, the religion was adopted by already settled groups, not wandering christians wandering until settled.
The wandering tribes of Europe you refer to (Goths etc) had settled sometime before the spread of christianity, although their areas of influence spread. -
Message 5
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
I'm sorry you should think I am on a moral crusade
at all. I'm not.
It just seems that the Crusades were an attempt to return to the roots of mankind, and that the original inhabitants of Europe were ALL nomadic people, and that there is a nomadic streak in all of us, that the crusades themselves were an attempt to return to a "Holy land" in exactly the same way as ALL nomads wish to return to a holy land, whether northern India or Palestine.
Hunting and gathering was a nomadic society was it not? When people became settled in to agricultural societies, did they then want to return to their roots?
Birds have sophisticated INSTINCTS of homing direction finding and so on.
Is it not true that Man has the same, and is it not possible that the crusades were an example of that instinct rather than a rational "seeking of the Holy cross"? (in so far as that itself was rational and not a mere desire)
Are the crusades considered in that light at all by any thinkers on the subject of history and anthropology? -
Message 6
Posted by Sabre-Wulf (U2142937) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
Surely the Crusdades came about because the Church promoted stories about how Christians in the Holy Land were being mistreated and Christian sites were being closed to or desecrated by the local non-Christians.
The Crusades were therefore not an attempt by Christans to resettle the Holy Land, but to secure it for all Christians. The presence of a garrison, which became the Crusader Kingdom, came about through the need to have control over holy Christan sites, not becasue of a spiritual need to be close to the Holy Land.
Personally I thnk the Crusades were started by the Church to stop the European nobles fighting each other and to expand its own sphere of influence, and were popular because they allowed Europeans to kill, rape and plunder in a guilt free environment. -
Message 7
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
Birds have sophisticated INSTINCTS of homing direction finding and so on.
Is it not true that Man has the same, and is it not possible that the crusades were an example of that instinct rather than a rational "seeking of the Holy cross"? (in so far as that itself was rational and not a mere desire)Β
You seem to be implying that we have a genetic memory of where mankind came from. Well for starters we simply don't. And even if we did, why would Europeans decide to move in the middle ages, centuries and millenia after their descendents settled in Europe in the first place?
And besides, humanity came from Africa, not the Middle East, so that is some naff homing instinct (if we even had one, which we don't!).
Are the crusades considered in that light at all by any thinkers on the subject of history and anthropology?Β
No, only by you it seems!
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Message 8
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
the Church promoted stories about how Christians in the Holy Land were being mistreatedΒ
That is how the came about and they ended up sacking Constantinople/ Byzantium in one of the most applaling acts of cowardice incomparably worse than anyhting the Muslims ever perpetrated on the Christians.
If you look across the eight crusades one of which was to put an end to the Cathar heresy in Southern France , another of which ended up in Serbia,they had very little to do with searching for the true cross, which was completely lost in the long rune if it ever existed.
They DID have to do with the development of Business practises through Europe and the expansion of the business empires of the Teutonic knights and knights Templar, the latter of which is a masonic order even today in the UK and the former of which is a regal order of Northern Europe. They were the original business empires.
You seem to be implying that we have a genetic memory of where mankind came from. Well for starters we simply don't. And even if we did, why would Europeans decide to move in the middle ages, centuries and millenia after their descendents settled in Europe in the first place?
And besides, humanity came from Africa, not the Middle East, so that is some naff homing instinct (if we even had one, which we don't!).Β
Stoggler does at least try to understand my question!
Alzheimer's disease may be an example of a homing instinct gone awry; slightly a different context.
Humanity did indeed come from Africa but it stayed in the mid east for a while before it ventured on
again surely, to Northern India and some directly to the fringes of Europe?
I do imply that we have a homing instinct based on odour as much as anything. The odour of the scensor of the monks is a device for homing and recognition, used by monks over the centuries who recognised the value of HIVE ODOUR used by bees to
identify their kin.
The instinct is a combination of the senses of perception. -
Message 9
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
Alzheimer's disease may be an example of a homing instinct gone awryΒ
Wrong, and not based on any scientific evidence whatsoever. Alzheimer's is the slow deteriation of the brain and ultimately death - I cannot see any conceivable link between a neurodegenerative disease and a homing instinct.
I do imply that we have a homing instinct based on odour as much as anything.Β
Good grief, where on earth do you get that from?
Can you explain why, if humans originated in Africa, we would want to go back to somewhere where our descendents stopped off before moving on? And why was it only Europeans who decided to go back "home", when the Chinese, Maori, and Malays have shown no inclination to do so in history? Sorry, but your theory is nonsense. -
Message 10
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
The Nomadic routes of the Gypsies from northern India are exactly those of the migrations of the Indo-Europeans to Northern Europe.
Both in Jewish culture (with great respect for it)
and in Gypsy culture (also) there are myths of the return to the promised land, or the land of their forefathers.
Alzheimer's is the slow deteriation of the brain and ultimately death - I cannot see any conceivable link between a neurodegenerative disease and a homing instinct.Β
Loss of orientation, of bearings, is one of the main symptoms of it, in its early stages.
How do Nomads, or even hunter gatherers, take their bearings, and what were the bearings of the Christian crusaders? -
Message 11
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Wednesday, 16th January 2008
You didn't answer my question Dai:
Can you explain why, if humans originated in Africa, we would want to go back to somewhere where our descendents stopped off before moving on? And why was it only Europeans who decided to go back "home", when the Chinese, Maori, and Malays have shown no inclination to do so in history? Β
I notice that you keep on mentioning Jews and Gypsies - that's two relatively small groups in human history. They may have myths of returning to a promised land but this is passed down by oral (and later written) history and not by some genetic memory.
If that is the case, can you provide evidence (some scientific paper or publication) than back up your assertions. -
Message 12
Posted by JB (U569100) on Wednesday, 16th January 2008
Sorry if I'm mistaken, but underlying all of this, is there some implication of: "Crusades Bad. Cusaders Bad. Contemporary Western Civillisation equals heirs to Crusaders, therefore Contemporary Western Civillisation...."
You get the picture? -
Message 13
Posted by Volgadon (U10843893) on Wednesday, 16th January 2008
Let's take a look at nomads. The idea that they spend their whole lives wandering from place to place and then going back to their ancient lands, is mistaken. Odds are you would end up dead pretty soon. It's often a seasonal thing and you travel from one area back to another, familiar one, in order to support your tribe. Large scale migrations are often because of war, or disease, or famine, or population explosion, as well as a combination of all the above.
Gypsies returning to northern India? Would you care to give a reference?
The Crusaders didn't want to RETURN to the Holy Land, but secure and purge the cradle of their faith of heathens, as they saw it.
Why did the Jews want to return to their ancient homeland? because they were outsiders everywhere else, at the mercy of others. Their homeland represented a golden age when they were an independent people and a sovereign nation.
The sack of Constantinople has nothing to do with the original crusade, and definitely nothing to do with your nomad theory. Simply put, the Venetians saw an opportunity to pay back an old rival and increase their own power, prestige and coffers -
Message 14
Posted by Volgadon (U10843893) on Wednesday, 16th January 2008
There is a really plausible explanation as to why the routes of the Gypsies from northern India are those used by the Indo-Europeans (if this is even true). The same geographical and topographical obstacles (mountains, deserts, etc) were in the way of both Gypsies and Indo-Europeans. People tend to take the easiest path, which I assume was north-west, in this case. We all need water, so take the same path between water sources. Same goes for grazing grounds.
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Message 15
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Wednesday, 16th January 2008
M14 Volgadon
That would indeed be the plausible explanation as for the Old silk routes some of which came across in to Eastern Europe I believe. An element of prediction in the 'nomadic' route they would take.
The Crusaders didn't want to RETURN to the Holy Land, but secure and purge the cradle of their faith of heathens, as they saw it.Β
I would argue this point by saying that they were persuaded that the 'Holy Land' was just that: whole,
and a very good reason for returning to it.
You may think the thread is a silly one but I kept Bees for fifteen years or so, and the ways of sheep livestock are not dissimilar either; the number of epithets in the bible about livestock and the comparison with human activity are very great indeed.
Live stock are 'hefted' to a valley so that they do not stray out of it; when they do they are lost, and have to be RE-hefted to a new area.
The INSTINCT is always to return to the hefted area if possible.
In human terms if they knew their origin, where they were first hefted, then they would be delighted to do something instinctive and return
to the 'whole' land.
Whilst Bees do not have a memory for their old heft beyond about four miles,sheep and cows may have a much wider heft. The case of pigeons is rather different since they do have a KNOWN homing device in their brains, which can be trained by man.
In the case of Human beings they DO have an oral and frequently poetic memory, which would tell them where the original heft was; indeed the bible NT tells them precisely that!
Hence the crusades. -
Message 16
Posted by Volgadon (U10843893) on Wednesday, 16th January 2008
"I would argue this point by saying that they were persuaded that the 'Holy Land' was just that: whole,
and a very good reason for returning to it."
What?? What does the adjective 'holy' have to do with 'whole'?
Please, find me one contemporary source that mentions returning at all, let alone as a motive or cause.
The phenomenon known as a crusade, as you yourself have pointed out by mentioning southern France, was not about returning to any land, but a forceful reformation. In the case of the first crusade, it was to oust the Muslim occupiers of the sacred places of Christianity, who were, as the account went, desecrating said places and terrorising Christians. Going on a crusade was a sign of your religious devotion, of sticking one to Christ's enemies.
Here is the most basic of all sources relating to the crusades.
Fulcher of Chartres:
"If anyone seizes a bishop let him be treated as an outlaw. If anyone seizes or robs monks, or clergymen, or nuns, or their servants, or pilgrims, or merchants, let him be anathema [that is, cursed]. Let robbers and incendiaries and all their accomplices be expelled from the church and anthematized. If a man who does not give a part of his goods as alms is punished with the damnation of hell, how should he be punished who robs another of his goods? For thus it happened to the rich man in the gospel [Luke 16:19]; he was not punished because he had stolen the goods of another, but because he had not used well the things which were his.
"You have seen for a long time the great disorder in the world caused by these crimes. It is so bad in some of your provinces, I am told, and you are so weak in the administration of justice, that one can hardly go along the road by day or night without being attacked by robbers; and whether at home or abroad one is in danger of being despoiled either by force or fraud. Therefore it is necessary to reenact the truce, as it is commonly called, which was proclaimed a long time ago by our holy fathers. I exhort and demand that you, each, try hard to have the truce kept in your diocese. And if anyone shall be led by his cupidity or arrogance to break this truce, by the authority of God and with the sanction of this council he shall be anathematized."
After these and various other matters had been attended to, all who were present, clergy and people, gave thanks to God and agreed to the pope's proposition. They all faithfully promised to keep the decrees. Then the pope said that in another part of the world Christianity was suffering from a state of affairs that was worse than the one just mentioned. He continued:
"Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do. Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impunity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.
. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let him eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."
Robert the Monk puts it this way:
"From the confines of Jerusalem and the city of Constantinople a horrible tale has gone forth and very frequently has been brought to our ears, namely, that a race from the kingdom of the Persians, an accursed race, a race utterly alienated from God, a generation forsooth which has not directed its heart and has not entrusted its spirit to God, has invaded the lands of those Christians and has depopulated them by the sword, pillage and fire; it has led away a part of the captives into its own country, and a part it has destroyed by cruel tortures; it has either entirely destroyed the churches of God or appropriated them for the rites of its own religion. They destroy the altars, after having defiled them with their uncleanness. They circumcise the Christians, and the blood of the circumcision they either spread upon the altars or pour into the vases of the baptismal font. When they wish to torture people by a base death, they perforate their navels, and dragging forth the extremity of the intestines, bind it to a stake; then with flogging they lead the victim around until the viscera having gushed forth the victim falls prostrate upon the ground. Others they bind to a post and pierce with arrows. Others they compel to extend their necks and then, attacking them with naked swords, attempt to cut through the neck with a single blow. What shall I say of the abominable rape of the women? To speak of it is worse than to be silent. The kingdom of the Greeks is now dismembered by them and deprived of territory so vast in extent that it can not be traversed in a march of two months. On whom therefore is the labor of avenging these wrongs and of recovering this territory incumbent, if not upon you? You, upon whom above other nations God has conferred remarkable glory in arms, great courage, bodily activity, and strength to humble the hairy scalp of those who resist you.
Let the deeds of your ancestors move you and incite your minds to manly achievements; the glory and greatness of king Charles the Great, and of his son Louis, and of your other kings, who have destroyed the kingdoms of the pagans, and have extended in these lands the territory of the holy church. Let the holy sepulchre of the Lord our Saviour, which is possessed by unclean nations, especially incite you, and the holy places which are now treated with ignominy and irreverently polluted with their filthiness. Oh, most valiant soldiers and descendants of invincible ancestors, be not degenerate, but recall the valor of your progenitors."
This is the only passage that might remotely support your theory:
"Let none of your possessions detain you, no solicitude for your family affairs, since this land which you inhabit, shut in on all sides by the seas and surrounded by the mountain peaks, is too narrow for your large population; nor does it abound in wealth; and it furnishes scarcely food enough for its cultivators. Hence it is that you murder one another, that you wage war, and that frequently you perish by mutual wounds. Let therefore hatred depart from among you, let your quarrels end, let wars cease, and let all dissensions and controversies slumber. Enter upon the road to the Holy Sepulchre; wrest that land from the wicked race, and subject it to yourselves. That land which as the Scripture says "floweth with milk and honey," was given by God into the possession of the children of Israel. Jerusalem is the navel of the world; the land is fruitful above others, like another paradise of delights. This the Redeemer of the human race has made illustrious by His advent, has beautified by residence, has consecrated by suffering, has redeemed by death, has glorified by burial. This royal city, therefore, situated at the centre of the world, is now held captive by His enemies, and is in subjection to those who do not know God, to the worship of the heathens. She seeks therefore and desires to be liberated, and does not cease to implore you to come to her aid. From you especially she asks succor, because, as we have already said, God has conferred upon you above all nations great glory in arms. Accordingly undertake this journey for the remission of your sins, with the assurance of the imperishable glory of the kingdom of heaven."
Even here the element of 'return' is lacking. He is saying that as Christians, take Christ's land for yourselves out of the hands of his enemies.
People did not migrate blindly, they sought out as much information as they could. Those roads in Central Asia had been travelled for centuries, so advice was and could be given. Not really an 'element of prediction'.
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