Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Fought for Finland
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Message 1.Β
Posted by KIWIDOCTOR (U3274572) on Monday, 29th October 2007
My elder sister has been going through my late great uncles stuff , who recently died he was irish born emigrated to the usa , but this is the strange thing has war medals for fighting for finland , how did he get these
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Message 2
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Tuesday, 30th October 2007
Sunday,
During the winter war, there were many foreign volunteers - Christopher Lee of Lord of the rings and Dracula fame being one of the more famous.
There was great support for the Finns who were seen intenationally as the victim in this conflict, although supprot for the later continuation war, when the Finns (Understandably) threw their lot in with the Germans, was not as free-flowing. -
Message 3
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Thursday, 1st November 2007
'when the Finns (Understandably) threw their lot in with the Germans, was not as free-flowing.'
-the West later (Not understandably for me ) threw their lot in with the Russians ( or to be more correct with Stalin). ...in order then the lorries ,which were sent to Stalin ...to fight Hitler , could be used by NKVDers for transportation the Crimean Tatars in Asia -Siberia and Kazakhstan to 'work' in 'kolkhozs' ...in May , 1944, Mani. But if say frankly even Hitler didn't dare to treat his own people in the way like Stalin did it.To the big account Hitler realized that he needed in German soldiers , but not in 'kolkhozs', and in powerful German economy. ..... ... He wasn't a fool like Lenin&Stalin who destroyed the Russian economical infrasructure in the name of Marx and unknown to anyone so-called 'proletariat' who , in its turn, lost ....as a result of it.... their job......He realized many things...say that Germany couldn't be raped .......only to be seduced in a democratic way ...during elections.....
It is all about the question who was the worst dictator - Hitler or Stalin...Other question - how was it possible to defend the so-called' homeland' if the Stalin's soldiers had no their OWN piece within that 'homeland' and ...in addition to it , say the Ukrainians (the outstanding case!) , were even deprived to speak in their OWN LANGUAGE in course of process 'rusification' .... and later ,during ethnic cleanings , were sent to the same direction where the Tatars found themselves. ...and the question is- how otherwise Stalin could win the Ukrainians ( who, these ones who lived in the Western Ukrainian lands, had in their disposal under the Poles their own piece of land in 1920-1939) in 1945-1955 ? Objectively the whole story of the Western 'cooperation' with Stalin during WWII sounds a bit silly....especially in part when some people try to judge the 'wrong' role of UPA , AKers ,Finns or Baltic 'green brothers' ..... and their RIGHT to defend the HOMELAND...by all means they got.. Who has God for his friend has the saints in his pockets...so to speak.
P.S Now it has become clear that Churchill's overreaction to Hitler's invasion in the 'ussr' played a bad joke with him.None forced him to say these words....+ The Germany lost the 'air war' over the Britain already.Thus the threat in shape of the invasion in the British Isles was out of the question for Hitler in 1941. America was doomed (with all of its recourses) to be involved on British side in WWII sooner or later...... Undoubtedly ,the realization of what he did came to him later. But it was too late...
And really I have never heard about any Draculas -foreign volunteers (except of Russians,Belorussians and Jews from the 'ussr' itself) who fought deeply in forests of the Western Ukraine. May be here we can find the roots why part of the patriotic Ukrainian youth joined Waffen SS Division Galytchyna in 1944(!!!!)....to obtain (in a such way) arms and training for Hitler's account ...in order then to fight Stalin for the HOMELAND. Draculas&Co were too far ...but the death was too close...you know , Mani. Ukrainians having a good habit ...to fight on their own.
Bye .
Jack. -
Message 4
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Thursday, 1st November 2007
JAck, I have to say most of your thread although intersting has little to do with this thread!
It should be pointed out that while the Winter war was defencive, the continuation war was not. -
Message 5
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Thursday, 1st November 2007
Hi Mani
this is technically correct. During the Continuation War, however, the Finns were seeking to regain Karelia and the other territory which had been seized by Stalin in 1940.
The Finns, for example, notably refused to shell Leningrad which their forces were beseiging in the north. This was in reply to a request to do so by the Germanss who were besieging the city from the south.
As far as the Finns were concerned the northern perimeter of the city boundary of Leningrad was also the international border between Finland and the Soviet Union.
Finland was making a point of respecting the territorial integrity of its neighbour the Soviet Union even despite the fact that a state of war existed between the 2 countries. This was even after Stalin had recently flagrantly violated Finland's territorial integrity and done so as an act of agression during peacetime. And this is not to mention Stalin's other aggressions against Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland etc.
regards
Vizzer -
Message 6
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Thursday, 1st November 2007
Vizzer,
I think it also important to point out that the continuation war was also a pre-emptive strike, rather than just a re-conquest..,
Hoebver, it was the Finnish aiom to create a 'buffer' between itself and the SU, not just to re-claim land lost in the Moscow Peace Treaty. -
Message 7
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Friday, 2nd November 2007
Interesting? Surely , interesting.... and even I dare say instructively
....hah-hah-hah....Always interesting to know of what some people think .
Well,
Mani , how are you going to judge the events without going into important 'details' which , as I suspect , are still being unknown for the most of our men ?
Just a remark.
I count you like a veteran and a pro of our Board..and the one who knows my own way to picture the things in depth.
=================
The Finnish Defence Corps under General Mannerheim had grown into major national army since its defeat of the Reds at Helsingfors during the spring of 1918. Since those times commies feared most the Finns rather than other other kind of 'whites'. Stalin didn't forget the humiliation of Bolsheviks when they were forced to offer a piece accord with the Finns on the condition that they remained neutral in the Russian civil war .Stalin attacked Finland on 30 of Nov.,1939..according the German-Soviet Treaty of FRIENDSHIP which was signed on 28 of September, 1939.Sadly to say but....why you , Mani , have missed that 'unimportant' detail? Without mention of it we have nothing to say about the 'winter war'.....+ it was written there , in the Treaty, that Stalin had 'free hands' in the Finland and the Baltic countries.+Romania..and really as we all are known, I want to belive that it so, in 1940 he forced 'em to sign so-called 'treaties of safety'...and then Stalin simply made from these states the 'soviet republics'...Stalin himself openly said to the Latvian Ministry of the Foreign Affairs in 1940 :
'As for the German position....we have the right to occupy Latvia'.-where 'we' to stand for 'me'...i.e.Stalin.
Albert Taluris, Soviet Policy towards the Baltic States 1919-1940 (Notre Dame 1959).
Remarkably...THE GERMAN POSITON!!!!!! Not the British , American.......
that's why I had mentioned the countries into my previous post over here...+ Poles and the Western Ukraine.I think that instead to send Drakulas -'lone fighters' to Finland and to have the plans to attack oil-fields in Baku there was a need to do something more useful really...to bring Stalin to his feelings. But in those times Britishers were more interested in the Middle East ......as usually it happens with the West. Right?
'History will never forgive me if I surrender what Peter the Great won' - the main postulate of the Russian 'empire builders'-no matter by whom they were 'reds' or 'whites'.. tzars, Lenin , Stalin or Putin with Breznev.But commies were always quick to exploit the situation for their own 'historical purposes'....and when the WWII was over ....Stalin did it once more- when he forced Finns (as the side which lost the war) to become a 'neutral' country for ever.
'You have to choose more strong arguments' (quoted from the famous expression of Mao Dze Dong) , Mani. ( I'm joking ) -
Message 8
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Friday, 2nd November 2007
Hello OUNUPA
to send Drakulas -'lone fighters' to FinlandΒ
This looks like a possible case of 'double-translation'.
If a 'Dracula' is a term in the Russian language for a lone fighter - then it certainly is a case of double-translation. This would be a similar term, perhaps, to the German notion of a 'Werwolf' meaning a 'stay-behind guerilla'.
In Message 2, however, Mani referred to the English actor Christopher Lee who became famous in the 1950s, 60s and 70s in British cinema for portraying the character of Count Dracula the vampire.
It seems that (if my understanding here is correct) Lee was (in Russian terminology) a metaphorical military 'Drakula' during the Winter War and then subsequently became a dramatic 'Dracula' on the silver screen. Would that be a correct interpretation?
regards
Vizzer -
Message 9
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Saturday, 3rd November 2007
Hi OUNUPA
I agree that the 'detail' is important...
And equally must admit that my knowledge of the winter and continuation war is biased towards the Finns.
Mrs Mani is Finnish, so I suppose it's not really surprising! -
Message 10
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Saturday, 3rd November 2007
'During the winter war, there were many Foreign Volunteers - Christopher Lee of Lord of the rings and Dracula fame being one of the more famous. ' (Mani)
- and those FOREIGN VOLUNTEERS are for me by these LONE FIGHTERS-Drakulas , man. It is nothing to do with the non-Russian term Drakula. But thanks for your
'Werwolf' meaning a 'stay-behind guerilla'
, Vizzer. Ukraine is one of the ''werwolf''s strongholds...I mean Nestor Makno, Stepan Bandera.....
As for movies , here bellow is a list of the films I will pay hard cash to see :
Spartacus.
Patton.
Red River.
High Sierra.
Flying Tigers.
Ben Hur.
The Warriors.
Magnum Force.
Casablanca.
Apocalypse Now.
Public Enemy.
Great Lines from the Movies :
'I stick my neck out for nobody"
Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca.
'I love the smell of napalm in the morning'.
Robert Duvall in Apocalypse Now.
Do pobachennya ( I mean.... bye ) , Vizzer.
Have a nice weekend , you and Mrs.Mani.
Jack. -
Message 11
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Monday, 5th November 2007
It is nothing to do with the non-Russian term Drakula.Β
A Ukrainian term perhaps?
'Werwolf' meaning a 'stay-behind guerilla'
, Vizzer. Ukraine is one of the ''werwolf''s strongholds...I mean Nestor Makno, Stepan Bandera.....Β
In Britain we had Oliver Reed.
Spartacus...Ben Hur.Β
Gladiator
Casablanca.
Apocalypse Now.Β
To Have And Have Not
The Battle of Algiers
Great Lines from the Movies :
'I stick my neck out for nobody"
Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca.
'I love the smell of napalm in the morning'.
Robert Duvall in Apocalypse Now.Β
'Was you ever bit by a dead bee?'
Walter Brennan in To Have And Have Not.
'And doesn't it seem to you even more cowardly to drop napalm bombs on defenseless villages, so that there are a thousand times more innocent victims? Of course, if we had your airplanes it would be a lot easier for us. Give us your bombers, and you can have our baskets.'
Larbi Ben M'Hidi in The Battle of Algiers. -
Message 12
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Monday, 5th November 2007
I believe that the US contingent of foreign volunteers mostly staffed ambulances rather than being combatants. This was, by the way, no easy option. They had to go to the frontline areas and they also sustained casualties.
Most of the 'foreign legion' in the Winter War were Scandinavians. -
Message 13
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Monday, 5th November 2007
Timtrack,
"Most of the 'foreign legion' in the Winter War were Scandinavians."
Actually, quite a lot of Hungarians also... But most from Sweden...
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