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the angel of mons
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Message 1.Â
Posted by vera1950 (U9920163) on Saturday, 27th October 2007
hi ,
the angel of mons -fact or fiction?
has anyone any views -was it really Henry V`s bowman keeping watch over their decsendants in the retreat from Mons or is it just a load of sentimental moral boosting propaganda?
Did 2 common soldiers (who wouldn`t possibly know anything about Henry and his bowmen) really see the apparition and describe it as archers or was this a total fabrication by the press of the day? -
Message 2
Posted by -OOPSIE- (U248494) on Saturday, 27th October 2007
Yes, an actual real angel decended from heaven, to protect the holy British troops against the hellish German hordes...
What do you think?! -_- -
Message 3
Posted by vera1950 (U9920163) on Saturday, 27th October 2007
hi oopsie,
thanks for the reply but did you really need to be so offensive.
i am merely attepting to start a discussion on this and other myths and legends surrounding conflicts.
also to examine why these stories start and are perpetuated. do they serve any purpose at the time and if so what.
myths and legends in wars and conflict is i feel a legitamate topic for discussion.
also there are those who believe in these events and whether you consider them unreasonable believes or not ,you could try debating the subject rather than pour scorn on it just by readinf 1 post. -
Message 4
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Saturday, 27th October 2007
hi vera
fiction - recently found a website debating war myths and legends which stated that - but have recently changed pcs so i lost all my favourites
will try and find it again
regards ST
(IGNORE ALL THE CR-P) -
Message 5
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Sunday, 28th October 2007
It was a mith spread to show that god was as we all know really on the side of the British. There is a copy of the painting The Angle of Mons. in Bootle Town Hall, North Merseyside
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Message 6
Posted by Brevabloke (U1685837) on Monday, 29th October 2007
It was a very deliberatly created myth - the story was based on one taken from a novel of the 19th century I believe. Somewhere I have an issue of The Skeptic that goes into it at great length - I'll dig it up if you like.
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Message 7
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Monday, 29th October 2007
The idea of the 'Angels of Mons' started in a fictional short story, written by the great writer of the supernatural, Arthur Machen. How it came to believed as truth I'm not entirely sure, but probably has to do with the way it was presented in the London Evening News (rather like Orson Welles' radio play version of 'War of the Worlds' was taken for fact, because of the new-bulletin format).
More here:
There are some interesting myths from the Great War. One that has always fascinated me was the idea that a rag-tag army of deserters, drawn from all nations, was living in no-mans land, coming out at night to scavenge for food etc. I came across this in Paul Fussell's book "The Great War and Modern Memory", which is about how literature shaped and was shaped by the WWI experience. -
Message 8
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Monday, 29th October 2007
not an absolute myth there were camps of deserters on the old somme battlefield that had to be cleared out by cavalry at one point. Also in the country side round Etaples, although the best way apparantly was to just sneak in to one of the transit camps and hide in plain view as it were.
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Message 9
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Monday, 29th October 2007
not an absolute myth there were camps of deserters on the old somme battlefield that had to be cleared out by cavalry at one pointÂ
Have you got a reference for that incident? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've not come across it before. It's hard to imagine how any groups could survive in no-mans land for any length of time, what with heavy bombardment, sniper fire, and regular night-patrols. -
Message 10
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Monday, 29th October 2007
I doubt if there were deserters in the 'no man's land' between the armies. This area was usually actually quite narrow. They might have been easy pickings for both side to shoot at.
I think that you are thinking of the areas behind the lines, ie, the opposite side of the lines to 'no man's land', in safe areas, away from the shooting.
The fictionalised series 'The Monocled Mutineer' made some time ago was based on events around Etaples I think. Small numbers of soldiers evaded the front and slipped away. However, having nowhere to go, they ended up living rough, on the run from their own side. There were some relatively small scale mutinies in the British army at this time as well. -
Message 11
Posted by Amphion (U3338999) on Monday, 29th October 2007
Mike Alexanders got this one covered. It was also popularised by the clergy in their sunday sermons, especiall during 1915, when Voluntary Recruitment was still being implemented. Ive found a number of holy men, using the Angels of Mons as their sermon, in order to show that god was on the side of the allies. Interestingly, non of them had actually met an eye witness, but spoken to a wounded soldier in a base hospital who had heard of somebody else who was actually involved???
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Message 12
Posted by Italophile (U2460529) on Tuesday, 30th October 2007
myths and legends in wars and conflict is i feel a legitamate topic for discussion.Â
Hmmm, - very possibly! But with the greatest possible respect, it wasn't the cleverest way of raising the issue, i.e.,
the angel of mons -fact or fiction?Â
I know it's sticking my neck out, - but I really do think that anything relating to the supernatural (including all things religious) needs to be classified under the 'fiction' heading.
Or even completely delusional!!!
However many people really really believe in it. -
Message 13
Posted by vera1950 (U9920163) on Wednesday, 31st October 2007
hi welshlibrarian,
good to have your views.
i don`t think your sticking your neck out ,it`s a perfectly valid point of view and one i am sure held by many.if we all had the same opinions there`d be no debate.
i take on board my introduction to the subject may not have been the best way.however there has been some responses and that was the point of my posting.
i really wanted to discuss how these myths and legends came aboutand did they have any usefullness at the time to the wars progress and the men involved.we are talking about a time when the masses were not as sophisticated in their beliefs as we think we are today.
can i just throw this into the mix-the bef in the retreat from mons crossed the somme at the exact same place as henry v and his army on the way to agincourt-in opposite directions.the route taken by henry would have passed through aveuly wood ,many of his bowmaen were from lancashire and in avuely wood there is a ww1 cemetery called `lancashire dump` -
Message 14
Posted by Killfacer (U8855584) on Wednesday, 31st October 2007
the angel of mons was clearly an entirely fabircated myth and as a couple of people have mentioned above your introduction of the subject was strange at best. Welshlibrarian is completely right in saying that it should be called fiction becuase thats what it is; fiction. It was no more than propaganda created to raise moral.
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Message 15
Posted by Italophile (U2460529) on Wednesday, 31st October 2007
Hi Vera,
You obviously know much more about British/WWI history than I do, - my ignorance of the subjects being mainly why I don’t add to very many threads on them. My chosen courses at university were a weird mix of Italian Renaissance History, Art History, Archaeology and Modern European Political history.
As you’ve probably gathered, I’m also deeply cynical about all things religious/superstitious/supernatural, which I tend to look upon as synonymous.
I’m with those contributors to this thread who believe that the ‘Angel of Mons’ myth – and any and all other alleged supernatural events are exactly that – mythical, and derive either from credulous rumour mongering among soldiers (who are naturally keen to believe that death is not the end) or from deliberate propaganda/morale boosting from the generals/politicians.
Cheers,
WL. -
Message 16
Posted by StourBlue (U1774521) on Wednesday, 31st October 2007
vera,
not necessarily the case that 'common' soldiers wouldn't have known about Henry. Knowledge of history may have been better amongst the masses back then that it is now. -
Message 17
Posted by vera1950 (U9920163) on Wednesday, 31st October 2007
hi welshlibrarian,
your subjects at university all seem very interesting to me-especially archeaology.
i am afraid that i have not had the benefit of a university education and all my knowledge of history comes from my own reading and research,particularily the battlegrounds.i expect had i been able to study the subject formally i would have a better knowledge.
it may not be of any interest to anyone but i will list some of the battlefields i have visited in the recent past and there may be some topics of interest contained ther-in.
senlac
marston moor
towton
sedgemoor
wigan lane-i actually work in the lane.
dunkirk
loos
ypres
somme
aisne
agincourt
normandy beaches
pegasus bridge
the bocage
the falaise corridor
monte casino.
i appreciate your views on religion etc, and they are a valid set of views. i on the other hand hold differing ones ,although i hope i dont run into the gullable group.
your going to hate me for this but fiction is often stanger than the fact. -
Message 18
Posted by vera1950 (U9920163) on Wednesday, 31st October 2007
hi stourblue,
point taken re soldiers knowledge of history during ww1.
vera -
Message 19
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 31st October 2007
william Manchester in "Goodbye Darkness" mentions an apparition that came to him one night - more like the devil of mons tho
young soldier, thousands of miles from home, scared, tired, who knows what can be seen to give you some courage
unfortunately i think its ALL fiction
st -
Message 20
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 31st October 2007
hi vera
superb list - wish i had done that !!!
1. I have been to Agincourt - did you notice - and laugh - at the fact the guestbook was full of english visitors!! - very few french visitors - wonder why lol
2. dont know if you know that Senlac has every year - on the anniversary - a re-enactment of the battle - horses, infantry - the lot - they have a Saxon encampment before the battle - superb !!
3. I have visited - which you havent lol -the last (i think) armed encounter on British soil - the "Battle of Bossenden wood"
i have also seen the lion banner !!!!
st -
Message 21
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Thursday, 1st November 2007
According to the wikipedia article, it seems the myth got established by spiritualists and other believers-in-the-spirit-world picking up on Machen's short story and reporting it as fact; this must have filtered back to the troops.
What's curious about this myth is that it's a very positive one. Most of the myths of WWI were negative ones, centred on alleged enemy atrocities - basically attempts to demonize the enemy. For example, the claim that the Germans were boiling down babies to make soap - or the Germans' own claims that French/Belgian civilians were taking pot-shots at their soldiers from their house windows (the so-called 'Francs-Tireurs'). Obviously demonizing the enemy has the important psychological function of making it easier to accept that killing them is justified.
In the case of the baby-boiling myth, some historians contend that the discovery that this was false may have had an influence, years later, in making people suspicious of stories about Nazi atrocities against the Jews. -
Message 22
Posted by vera1950 (U9920163) on Thursday, 1st November 2007
hi followed your link-ihad never heard of this before.
re agincourt-the visitor centre did seem more visited by the english than the french.i foundit very informative and suprisingly was not anti-english. i found something different in the village church -a plaque inside invoking prayers for the safe return of ``the prisoners'' as it was obviously in french i dont think i fully understood its meaning. in the churchyard there were a few gravestones of people who appeared to have been prisoners and had returned to agincourt and later died there. the time was around ww2.
does anyone know anything more about this.
vera -
Message 23
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Thursday, 1st November 2007
vera
u have lost me there lol
if they had returned as prisoners - there was a 400 year gap !!
bossenden wood is superb - can u imagine it ??
all the peasants running round folowing the lion banner and the loaf on a stick
you have to remember that they didnt have sky tv lol
st -
Message 24
Posted by vera1950 (U9920163) on Friday, 2nd November 2007
hi no the wall plaque was also from
ww2 time.sorry i did not make myself clear.
i just found this a facsinating thing to find in agincourt .i feel we tend to think agincourt has become frozen at 1415. it clearly had involvement in other conflicts-i had not thought of this before.
i am now left wondering why were these people prisomers.where did they go ,how were they treated etc.
vera
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