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Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by Beaver2007 (U3855732) on Friday, 2nd June 2006
Just a short comment-
I believe the main lesson of history is the importance of wisdom and understanding.
I've studied history for many years and began to take a keen interest when I asked my Dad about his WWII experiances as a pilot of a B-17[stationed at Grafton-Underwood;he had 33 missions to his credit].I must admit that my own wisdom and understanding are very deficient but in my personal study of history I have seen that no matter how "cultured" or "civilized" a nation may be,they can make some pretty serious blunders that have such tragic consequences.Now I realize that this thread has been discussed before, but still I welcome more comments[either short or detailed].Currently,I am on active duty in the Army-peter.schissel@us.army.mil
Based in Indiana doing medical work.As an American, I know that my country has made many mistakes and blunders so therefore any criticism to the USA is certainly understandable and even welcomed as this may bring our problems into sharper focus and lead to solutions.All the best!Link to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 2
Posted by Dirk Marinus (U1648073) on Saturday, 3rd June 2006
Beaver,
Based in Indiana doing medical work.As an American, I know that my country has made many mistakes and blunders so therefore any criticism to the USA is certainly understandable and even welcomed as this may bring our problems into sharper focus and lead to solutions.All the best!
Μύ
Why is it that the whole wide world and its family ( and now even you as an American) keep on saying that the US has made meny mistakes and blunders , but no one ever says that about other countries.
I can name some countries which have made huge mistakes but you never hear them mentioned.
The United States of America has also done many things which should be applauded.
God bless America and all othe countries around the world.Link to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 3
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Saturday, 3rd June 2006
My reading of Beaver's post is that he was inviting opinion about the behaviour of nations in general, but added graciously that he would not take offence if criticism was levelled at his own country in the interest of open discussion. A welcome change from the 'don't dare criticise my own country or I'll simply be rude to you' unstated proviso that often accompanies similar discussions on these boards.
You are right Beaver to say that the topic of what can be learned from history has been done to death on these boards before. It is always a good one however, and often brings out the philosopher in people as well as the historian (if it can avoid sinking into facile mudslinging, another all too frequent occurrence on message-boards such as this).
My own response is that history can teach nothing if it itself is not taught, and to my horror I am witnessing in my own lifetime a departure academically from the rigour of absorbing fact in favour of a 'theory-based' and speculative approach to history, often heavily biased in favour of a particular social (if not socialist) philosophy that allows the ugly head of political correctness to insinuate itself into the study. While history will always be understood by people using reference to contemporary values, there used to be a governing principle in the study of history that the true historian was the person who could extricate themselves from that dependency and evaluate the subject matter objectively. That requirement, just like the requirement one time of being intimately acquainted with all the factual data relating to the subject, no longer seems to apply.
Worse, when weight is given to speculation over fact then the speculation itself is debased and worthless. The conclusions therefore arrived at from such speculation are then presented publicly as 'fact' and the result is that most dangerous of things - a generation of people who 'think that they know', and are not shy of claiming that they 'know what they think'. If one were ever to describe the epitome of a person least likely to learn from history, then that is it.Link to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 4
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Saturday, 3rd June 2006
Oh give over Nordman, Polibius was making more or less the same complaints against the exponants of pathetic history.
Link to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 5
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Saturday, 3rd June 2006
And, even if the man wasn't above tailoring his own writings so as to appeal to different audiences when it suited his purposes, he had a point.
But who said that the appreciation of truly objective historical reporting is new? I merely pointed out that the practise is (yet again) becoming undervalued, and as such constitutes a peril if we are to benefit from history's lessons.
Give over yourself (whatever that is meant to mean).Link to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 6
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Saturday, 3rd June 2006
Dunno, I just detected a whiff of the modern retreat from reason argument. Not sure what truly objective history reporting is however although Polibius at least tells us what he believes it should be during his brief excursion away from his history, if only to justify why he hadn't included all the fantastic stories of origins and customs so beloved of his Hellenistic contemporaries.
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Message 7
Posted by cmedog47 (U3614178) on Saturday, 3rd June 2006
Nordman,
I couldn't agree with you more. The next step after comming to value theory over fact, is to make the "facts" fit the theory. We are all susceptible to this, not just ideologues, and by a conscious effort to keep an open mind to the facts of reality can we avoid persistent self-delusion. The problem is the "true believer" in a theory who feels no obligation to consult the facts, because he already "knows" what it all means, and can easily fall into just filling in the blanks with the facts that he thinks ought to be true, and therefore must be true--in short, just making things up.
I have found that once someone puts on the tinted glasses of a general theory of history, to them everything that they see fits and supports that theory. The marxist sees the class struggle everywhere. The fundamentalist sees spiritual warfare behind everything. The Freudian sees confirmation everywhere of man's unconscious drives controlling his fate, and so one.
KurtLink to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 8
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 3rd June 2006
Kurt,
that's a thought-provoking and interesting reply.
See you after my Dublin visit.
Warm regards,
Paul.Link to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 9
Posted by Nielsen (U3014399) on Saturday, 3rd June 2006
Hello everyone, may I put in a penny's worth?
Kurt, you write:
"... I have found that once someone puts on the tinted glasses of a general theory of history, to them everything that they see fits and supports that theory. The marxist sees the class struggle everywhere. The fundamentalist sees spiritual warfare behind everything. The Freudian sees confirmation everywhere of man's unconscious drives controlling his fate, and so one.
Kurt"
Like my learned friend Paul I find this an interesting thread!
Yet I think you've forgotten something called "the hermeneutical circle" - though it might be something Scandinavian-Danish? question?
When it was taught me, it came over - in a somewhat simplistic form - as:
"One starts by being told something, asks general questions, is told more and then asks more specific questions, this goes on, and one starts to seek answers from more than one source, comparing the different answers, until one tends to know either a little of many aspects of a subject or quite a bit on a few of these aspects".
Then, of curse (nu pun intended) comes the tinted glasses, and they - occasionally - tend to weigh more than reason!
Warm regards to everyone here, who seek a reasoned, un-biased answer, and is willing to listen to questions.
Now I really must get back to work,
Cheers NielsenLink to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 10
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Saturday, 3rd June 2006
'Why is it that the whole wide world and its family ( and now even you as an American) keep on saying that the US has made meny mistakes and blunders , but no one ever says that about other countries.'
-Dirk ,so the same way as all around the world very like to say about the 'war in Iraq' ....but it is impossible thing to force 'em into discussion about Chechnya.Link to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 11
Posted by Nielsen (U3014399) on Saturday, 3rd June 2006
I just can't resist this,
OUNUPA, as you quote:
'Why is it that the whole wide world and its family ( and now even you as an American) keep on saying that the US has made meny mistakes and blunders , but no one ever says that about other countries.'
My comment, be certain that when you accuse someone of making mistakes and blunders, that a clear and distinct line is drawn between what is being done as the result of a national policy, and what is done by a single person!
May this remark not draw me into a quagmire of a discussion!
Paul, enjoy your visit to Dublin
Cheers NielsenLink to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 12
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Saturday, 3rd June 2006
I don't know about the US media, but here in Norway there is plenty of debate and criticism concerning the Russian line on Chechnya, and the parallel between the base economic incentives steering both Russian and US foreign policy in relation to their respective occupations is drawn so often as to be almost a clichΓ©.
I remember reading newspaper commentaries from both The Guardian and The Independent in the UK that made similar comparisons, and were scathing in their criticism of Russia's handling of the Chechen revolt. In Ireland also several papers and magazines have levelled similar charges against Russia, and the length of that occupation has only served to strengthen the criticism, not lessen it.
So I am not sure if the accusation that the US gets singled out for criticism of its foreign policy while Russia does not is quite fair.Link to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 13
Posted by Beaver2007 (U3855732) on Sunday, 4th June 2006
Thank you Dirk!I just got off duty and it's been interesting to read the messageboard.
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Message 14
Posted by Beaver2007 (U3855732) on Sunday, 4th June 2006
Sorry to mix you up with Dirk! As you can see my experiance is limited.Thanks for your post Nord. I really admire Norway's courage in standing up to the Nazi's during WWII and thank God they stopped the German development of the A bomb.
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Message 15
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Sunday, 4th June 2006
Beaver2007,
Welcome, errm, that's (nearly) all really. (Trust me, I was trying to find something I could argue with in your message #1, failed yet again).
One word of advice, don't invite criticism, it's known in boxing terms as "leading with the chin".
All the best, AA.Link to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 16
Posted by Beaver2007 (U3855732) on Sunday, 4th June 2006
Thanks Dirk! Hope I got it right this time.
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Message 17
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 4th June 2006
I'm Irish myself Beaver - just happen to live in Norway. I'd have to qualify your comment about Norway's resistance in WWII a little. Not only was it rather ineffectual in the long run, but you shouldn't forget that Norway also produced several thousand volunteer soldiers for the Wehrmacht also - a fact that has received little publicity (understandably) until very recent times. Quite a complex relationship with Germany, the Norwegian one, and one makes assumptions at one's peril.
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Message 18
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Monday, 5th June 2006
Nordmann, are you able to imagine for yourself if Bretons when they had been dealt with the IRA would have decided to put Belfast under the heavy bombing from air to handle the situation? We will never forget that Russians ALWAYS claim that Chechnya belongs to one of their OWN REGIONS with the capital in Moscow.
Or Americans also say that Iraq is one of the American States , don't they?
Of what comparisons are we talking about?
I 'm not to say of how Russians conduct themselves in the Crimea.Say me , for what hell they needed in the Naval base [ which been packed from the Russian spies who speak with a strong Moscow's accent in Russian....only our local Bonds from SBU (in some way=MI5) can't catch the difference into the ways of Russian language which is using in the Crimea and in Russia itself , as they very often like to say....although they recognize that such problem to exist ] in Sevastopol if they having in their disposal their own Naval base in Russian Novorosijsk within the Black Sea area ?
The Cold War is on its run , Nordmann.
Long Live Ireland !Link to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 19
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 5th June 2006
I would not draw a parallel between Belfast and Chechnya - or between the IRA and Chechen 'rebels'. Such a comparison would merely serve to distort the reality pertaining in both situations. The British view of Northern Ireland is currently very complex and as far removed from the old colonial paternalism as one can get - the prevailing attitude amongst many Britons now is that they would gladly be rid of it if they could, but that they still hold a responsibility for its citizens and even more of a responsibility for ensuring that it return to an administrable state that accommodates all of its citizens' wishes (an achievement that seems to be growing less impossible with the passage of time).
Your analysis of Chechnya however coincides with my own - and in the modern world there are few closer instances of a situation that mirrors the old empirical ambitions than the Russian policy towards Chechnya, motivated as it is by a purely economic desire to guarantee its oil and gas supplies and with little or no consideration for the wishes of the average Chechen in its calculations. It is naked territorialism with not even a pretence of cultural or political justification for the severity of its prosecution, save for the fact that under the Russians' own constitution the statelet of Chechnya's bid for independence was unlawful.
As for the USA claiming Iraq as a 'state', that is proposterous. There are indeed comparisons to be drawn between the Iraqi occupation and the Chechen war, but territorial acquisition is not on the Americans' agenda - just access to the oil reserves. If oil dried up in Iraq tomorrow the US stated commitment to establishing democracy in the region would be prosecuted with a little less hyperbole and fervour, I imagine, if at all.Link to this forum: Lessons from history? Wars and Conflicts? Just read the message boards!
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Message 20
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Monday, 5th June 2006
'It is naked territorialism'- it is naked terrorism to shoot Checheners from the name of Russian state ( i.e.the Russian 'citizens') on spot without a trial by drunken Russian 'soldiers'. Chechnya has been been fighting for its independence since the times of Russian Tzars nor less than 300 years.Russians using such 'means' within the situation of total lawlessness and then they have cornered the Chechen's partizans to act out of law .Who whom , so to speak.When the first president of Chechnya-Dudaev was at wheel at Chechnya during 1994-99 there were no any Arabs-'advisers' as we can witness now.
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Message 21
Posted by Erik Lindsay (U231970) on Monday, 5th June 2006
<QUOTE USER=USERID='3595230'>but territorial acquisition is not on the Americans' agenda - just access to the oil reserves.</QUOTE><BR /><BR />I agree. If territorial acquisition were America's goal, they would have made Japan and many of the Pacific Islands into permanent American possessions, which they could easily have done, after WW2.<BR /><BR />My personal opinion? Bush wants to be sure that his big oil buddies have plenty of black gold so that they can continue to line their pockets. If Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries were suddenly to dry up, US (and European) interest would promptly dry up also. The fertile crescent and holy land would be allowed to return to an unproductive desert, overflowing with internal bloodshed to which the western world would probably pay little, if any, attention. (As you can no doubt infer from my post, while I like the US immensely, I have little use for Mr Bush or his politics.)
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