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Why Diun't the egermans and the Japanese really help eachother out?

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Sleepysissco (U4090737) on Tuesday, 30th May 2006

  From what I remember, even ahen the United States was involved in the war in 1941 the Germas only decleared war on the USA, Nothing else!!! I'm supprised that the Japanede and the Germans failed to unite their empires in the Middle east and start to conquer the world together!!!
  
  Even Failing that, I'm supprised that they did'nt help each other out with the Same enimies...Could'nt the Germans and the japenese have sent airforces to help eachother out? Could'nt HItler have ordered to send a German airforce to help the Japanese in Asia?
  
  I'm just supprised that Hitler and Hiritio did'nt assist eachother better...I mean Why did'nt the Japanese attack the Soviet union when Germany invaded there in 1941 instead of attacking the U.S!!!!
  
  Just asking
  
  Thanks Philip

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Tuesday, 30th May 2006

  Sleepy,
  
  All good questions.
  
  Here are some thoughts on them.
  
  Japan did not attack the Soviets for two reasons. The Soviets had large reserves in Siberia to deal with a Japanese attack, but mostly because the reason the Japanese had to go to war was for natural resources, ie rubber, oil and the like. These were in South East Asia, not Siberia. Japan had to go Southwards or lack the resources for war, which the US was denying them through embargo. Japan had little to gain from defeating the Soviets.
  
  The Japanese airforce looked quite good in the early part of the war. They probably saw no need for German assistance. Very late on the Germans did try to send their jet technology over via submarine. It was too little far too late.
  
  The Middle East was the wrong place to attempt co-operation. The Japanese never really got close to it, while the Germans lost their North African campaign because they gave precedence to the Soviet attack. They could not do both.
  
  If the Germans had been able to avoid an attack on the Soviets entirely, then the Middle East may have been a rout to India, where they could join up. But, again, what would the purpose of joining up be, in itself ?
  
  
  Knocking the British and US out was the point, how could they have done that ?
  

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by George1507 (U2607963) on Tuesday, 30th May 2006

  Lack of resource, and the distances involved.

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Sleepysissco (U4090737) on Tuesday, 30th May 2006

  I just thought that the Japs and the Germans would want to help eachother during the war in order to defeat their enimies, Britain, The united States and the soviet Union! Much in the same way the U.S Helped Britain by joining the war against The Germans after the JAPNANESE attack on pearl Harbour in december 1941!! What's funny is that HITLER Decleared war on the u.S at this point despite the fact that the U.S was only at war with Japan. Hitler decleared war with the U.S.A for reasons that were never made clear!!!
  
  Still at lease democracy prevailed and the Dictatorships failed!!
  
  Thanks
  
  Philp Kennedy

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Dirk Marinus (U1648073) on Tuesday, 30th May 2006

  Philip,
  
  
  Actually there is some evidence that a few German U-boats did operate in the Indian Ocean and did use Singapore as a base.
  
  
  Believe it or not but it is known that at least on two occasions the German U-boat crews gave cigarettes and food to British PoW's working in Singapore harbour( while restocking) under the eyes of their Japanese guards.

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Idamante (U1894562) on Tuesday, 30th May 2006

  Why did Hitler declare war on US? Interesting question There are no clues from Hitler because he didn't discuss it with any of his generals before announcing it in the Reichstag. Maybe he thought the US & Soviets would argue and end up fighting each other, so saving Germany??

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by SONICBOOMER (U3688838) on Tuesday, 30th May 2006

  Apparently, in his twisted 'reasoning', Hitler had told whoever was in earshot that 'if the Jews bring the USA into the war, I will show no mercy'.
  
  So was he, in some way, using HIS declaration of war as almost an excuse to what his men were already doing in Russia with bullets and vans with the exhaust directed to where civillians were herded in the back of the vehicle, for the planning under way for gas chambers and ovens?
  
  He never gave a written order for this, though he'd likely long fantasised about it.
  Maybe he felt that the huge implications to bringing the US, for certain, into the European war, there was the drive, the impetus for proceeding as fast as possible, with the 'Final Solution'.
  Since victory was no longer a given, in the minds of those carrying his verbal orders, with those who rubber stamped it at Wanasee.
  
  Or maybe he just felt the same 'destiny' about confronting the US, as he did about provoking war in 1939 in the first place.
  
  Let's face it, he wasn't 'a details man', rising late, eating, taking a walk, playing with the dog, watching some films, then spilling out his aims and 'vision's in long monologues to subordinates, who would curry favour by competing with each other to be the most 'radical' in suggestions, as the Furher always preferred, with solutions to his rantings.
  
  How he ruled, the whole chaotic nature of the Nazi state, was not good for broad strategic thinking, to put it mildly.
  I see his declaration of war on the US in this context.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 30th May 2006

  Dirk,
  
  I made a reply to you on the "Vinkt" thread.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 30th May 2006

  Sonicboomer,
  
  a thought-provoking message.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by jberie (U3925952) on Tuesday, 30th May 2006

  History books most often attribute the defeat of Germany in WW2 to military tactics, materials, etc., and do not mention Hitler's insanity, drug addiction, and the chaos of his government.
  
  If Hitler had been of a stable mind--even with his diabolical plans--things likely would have turned out differently.
  
  Hitler's generals were afraid to disagree with him. Hitler would rant for a hour or more to a general, who would then leave and not have the faintest idea of what Hitler wanted to have done.
  
  

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by folgore (U3957252) on Tuesday, 30th May 2006

  German 37mm anti- tank guns were used by the japenesse at guadelcanal and in the new Britains .

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by wollemi (U2318584) on Tuesday, 30th May 2006

  There were U boats in the Indian Ocean, using Japanese controlled land bases, mainly Jakarta I think. There's a famous/infamous U boat U 862 that patrolled the Australian coast and managed to get into the Pacific and as far as New Zealand. it ended up back in Singapore at the end of the (European0 War and the crew was then interned

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by George1507 (U2607963) on Wednesday, 31st May 2006

  The fact that Hitler decared war on the USA before the USA declared war on Germany is a red herring. Italy, Japan and Germany had signed an agreement on 27 September 1940, and under this treaty, Germany was obliged to join with Italy to defend its ally Japan.
  
  So after the US declared war on Japan, it was inevitable it would be at war with Jpan's allies. The formal announcement took 4 more days after Pearl Harbor Day.
  
  The fact that Germany beat them to it is immaterial.

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• Message 14

  , in reply to message 13.

  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Wednesday, 31st May 2006

  "...Italy, Japan and Germany had signed an agreement on 27 September 1940, and under this treaty, Germany was obliged to join with Italy to defend its ally Japan...."
  
  This treaty only obliged Germany to declare war if Japan was attacked. It was clear, even to the most partial observer, that Japan was the aggressor. Germany was under no obligation under this treaty to declare war on the US. See attached link, Article Three. The
  
  More likely as a cause of the German declaration of war is German hubris and the US involvement in the Atlantic war, which was infuriating Hitler.
  
  
  
  
  
  

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• Message 15

  , in reply to message 14.

  Posted by cmedog47 (U3614178) on Wednesday, 31st May 2006

  Dirk:
  
  I don’t know the extent of it, but I know that at least one German surface raider operated in the Indian ocean and dropped captured allied civilians off in Japan where they were interned for the duration.
  
  Kurt
  

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• Message 16

  , in reply to message 14.

  Posted by George1507 (U2607963) on Wednesday, 31st May 2006

  OK, that's interesting, but how long would it have taken before the US made some aggressive move against Japan after Pearl Harbor? The Doolittle Raid was about 4 months later, but I feel sure that the Americans encountered and attacked the Japanese sometime soon after Dec 7.
  
  Realistically, the Tripartite Agreement meant the war would broaden from the conflicts in Europe and the Far East to the World.

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• Message 17

  , in reply to message 15.

  Posted by Dirk Marinus (U1648073) on Wednesday, 31st May 2006

  Dirk:
  
  I don’t know the extent of it, but I know that at least one German surface raider operated in the Indian ocean and dropped captured allied civilians off in Japan where they were interned for the duration.
  
  °­³ά°ω³ΩΜύ
  
  
  Kurt, now you say so ,I do remember having heard or read that this did happen.
  At the moment I cannot recall the name of raider.
  

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• Message 18

  , in reply to message 17.

  Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Wednesday, 31st May 2006

  The name of the German raider was the 'Atlantis' commanded by Vizeadmiral Bernhard Rogge, before she was sunk she completed the longest war-cruise in naval history, staying at sea for 655 days and steaming 100,000 miles. Rogge had sunk 145,000 tons of shipping by the time the atlantis was sunk, he was awarded the Knight's Cross with Oakleaf Cluster and is the only confirmed recipient of the Auxiliary Cruiser War Badge with Diamonds.
  
  The first 11 U-boats to be used for operations in the Far East were christened the 'Monsoon Group I' and they left Europe in the Summer of 1943, only five reached their destination. U-532 sank 4 ships, U-188, U-168, U-183 also sank ships as did U-533 which was sunk by aircraft in the Persian Gulf. The boats sent were the very long range Type IXD2, they were to fight their way out and return with a cargo of vital raw materials. There was a U-boat base at Penang, which was commanded by FK Wilhelm Dommes, who made the voyage out there as commander of U-178, and also at Surabaya.
  
  The second Monsoon Group left at the end of 1943 made up of 16 boats and had better luck getting there, amongst them was U-196, commanded by Commander Kentrat, which made the longest cruise of any U-boat in the war, 150 days.
  
  U-861 operated out of Djakarta and U-862 sailed around the coast of Australia sinking an American liberty ship of Sydney, carried on around and then sank another Liberty ship off Perth.
  
  U-181, U-195, U-219 & U-862 remained in Japan and were taken over by the Japanese and renamed I-501, I-502, I-506 & I-505, after VJ the first two surrendered in Singapore and the other two in Djakarta.

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• Message 19

  , in reply to message 17.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 31st May 2006

  Dirk,
  
  I made a reply to you on the "Vinkt" thread.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 20

  , in reply to message 16.

  Posted by Idamante (U1894562) on Friday, 2nd June 2006

  George1507
  
  You may be right that Germany was bound to get sucked into fighting the US eventually. However one of the most important US decisions of the war was that they would concentrate on fighting Germany before taking on Japan. If Hitler hadn't declared war I think this decision might well have gone the other way.
  
  What then? Would we have seen the US invading Japan in 43/44 while the UK continued to struggle against the U Boat threat, Rommel winning in N Africa, Luftwaffe beating Bomber command?

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