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Was thw waffen SS a usefull force to the germans

• Message 1. 

  Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Tuesday, 23rd May 2006

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  Posted by LittleHill (U3038272) on Tuesday, 23rd May 2006

  It spread fear between the ocuppied countries and was Hitler's bodyguard and numbered about 55,000

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  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Tuesday, 23rd May 2006

  fearsome warriors - no doubt of that - led by people who were idealogically sound rather than of proven ability - received all the best equipment - especially at the end of the war which would have been of more use to the front line veteran wehrmacht divisions

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  Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Tuesday, 23rd May 2006

  The Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler Regiment was Hitlers Bodyguard prewar before being expanded throughout the war, it's members continued to provide guard details at Berchtesgaden etc. The Waffen SS (as opposed to the Allgemeine SS) went from a strength of 35,000 in 1939 to approx 830,000 in 1945 in 38 divisions, though they did not all achieve division size manpower levels.

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  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006

  You have to say yes, they were a massively useful force to the Germans. Remember that the Waffen SS (well, the German units rather than the foreign legion type ones) were made up of usually young men, who had been indoctrinated in the ideologies of Nazism since they were schoolkids, and as such, they were fanatical believers in Hitler. These kids had been trained specifically for the purpose of fighting for Hitler since they were in their early teens, with the Hitler Youth, then straight into the SS when they were old enough. They were totally committed to their cause, willing to die, and willing to carry out any order they were given without question because they had been brought up to do precisely that! If they were told to fight to the last man and last bullet, that's what they would do. If they were told to attack a seemingly unassailable objective, they'd do it. This made them excellent, fearsome soldiers.
  
  However, this same willingness to carry out orders regardless of cost or consequence was also their downside, since they would follow orders without question, if they were told to go and destroy a village and slaughter the inhabitants without mercy, or machine-gun some helpless POWs, then they would do that without question too. They were excellent combat soldiers, but at the expense of being atrocious human beings. They were indoctrinated and trained to be efficient killers, and this in turn destroyed their humanity. For a prime example of their combat effectiveness, look at Michael Wittmann, an absolute legend in armoured warfare, whether you hate his ideological belief or not, he was a damned good combat soldier. On the other hand, look at Jurgen Stroop. Commanded the liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto, and actually made a little scrapbook of the action, with photos of what his men did, to remind him of the "good times" later. Absolute murdering scum.
  

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  Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006

  Hi DL,
  
  Respect to your message. You took all the pro and contra of that paramilitary organisation. Only a few things has not happened exactly, but in general you are right. I won´t be too pedant, from 1934 to 1943 not all applicants from the HJ were taken from the SS-Verfügungstruppe / since 1938 Waffen-SS, when they don´t fulfilled the conditions the Waffen-SS demanded from their applicants. From 1943 to 1945 the conditions weren´t that strong and so they took everybody from the HJ either by their own will or not.
  
  In the same way my Grandfather was also taken to the Waffen-SS in 1943, and he didn´t were asked wether he liked to join or not. In all other things you are absolutely right. My Grandfather was also brainwashed by that Ideology, although he wasn´t against all that Nazism before he has taken to the Waffen-SS. He never was involved in war crimes, because he was behind the frontlines and no member of special operating troops. He did his job as Radiooperator (Funker). Only in the end of WWII he was involved in short retreat fires, and he didn´t knewed if he shoot someone.
  
  I know the name Jürgen Stroop, but I haven´t read anything about Michael Wittmann. Who was he?.
  
  Regards
  
  Thomas
  

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  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006

  Hi Thomas,
  
  Michael Wittmann was a Waffen SS Panzer commander, working on Tiger Is in Normandy in 1944. Prior to that I think he had 50 or so tank kills against the Russians-I forget the exact figure, so have understated it.
  
  Wittmann was involved in a battle in a village called Villers Bocage where he and I think two other Tigers took out an entire British armoured column, again not sure on figures, but a LOT of tanks. Wittmann was only stopped when his Tiger was hit at a range of just a few feet, but even then he escaped on foot, and rejoined his unit.
  He basically attacked while outnumbered 20 to 1 and won, then escaped. An incredible action. He was (quite typically for the war in Normandy) killed a month or two later when his tank was attacked from the air.
  
  If you google Michael Wittmann Villers Bocage you should get the correct info on him.
  
  Cheers

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  Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006

  Thank you very much DL.
  
  Cheers
  Thomas

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• Message 9

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  Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006

  Just a few quick points in relation to previous posts.
  
  1) The Waffen SS did not always have preference for the the best and most modern equipment available, e.g. the first Panther tanks made available in July 1943 for Operation Citadel were in 10th Pz Bde attached to the Grossdeutschland PzGr division and the best equipped unit in the German army in June 1944 was the Panzer Lehr division.
  
  2) Not every member/unit of the Waffen SS was involved in or committed war crimes.
  
  3) Not all Waffen SS members/units were volunteers, individuals and units were seconded too or transferred too the Waffen SS, e.g. the 'Legion Volontaire Francaise' became the 33rd SS Grenadier Division "Charlemagne" and the 'Legion Wallonie' became firstly the SS Sturmbrigade Wallonien and later the 28th SS Frei-Gren Division "Wallonien".
  
  4) If you want to talk about the worst of the worst in the SS how about Oskar Dirlewanger.
  
  5) Michael Wittmann was killed on the 8th August 1944 at Gaumesnil in an engagement with Sherman Firefly's of A-Squadron, the Northamptonshire Yeomanry which was part of the 33rd armoured Bde. Anybody who is really interested in the career of Michael Wittmann should try and get hold of Patrick Agte's book "Michael Wittmann and the Tiger commanders of the Leibstandarte" published by JJ Fedorowicz, it is however extremely rare, it was re-published earlier this year and all 1,000 copies were sold within about 4 weeks, and it will cost you in the region of £80 or more.

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  Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006

  what were the waffen SS main golas during their srvices in the german army

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  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006

  To a large degree the Waffen SS was a front line unit, the same as the Wehrmacht. Tactically, once in the field it came under the control of OKW, however the unit retained strong links to the Kommandostab Reichsfuhrung-SS.
  
  In very general overall terms it was another unit within the German Army.
  
  So it's main goals were essentially the same as the Wehrmachts throughout the war. It didn't have a separate agenda.
  
  Cheers AA.
  

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  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006

  at the start of the war all ss troops were volunteers and had to prove their racial purity - some volunteers were rejected if they had fillings !!
  
  they also had to pass an initiation test - one of them - which always amuses me - was they had to let a hand grenade explode on the top of their helmet (why ??)
  
  towards the end of the war they werent quite so choosey - i mean they even formed a French SS division
  
  of course they had an english section - The Legion of St george - formed from english POWs - which consisted of 4 men and a dog - formed with the promise of free 8eer and regular news of the footie results - 8ut collapsed when they found they would have to fight on weekends
  
  cheers st

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  Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006

  Stalteriisok,
  
  The SS originally had in its ranks basically anybody who wanted to be a member, between 1933 & 1935 though efforts were made to "clean up" by getting rid of those who were, outright criminals, homosexuals, alcoholics, the professionally unemployed and anyone who could not prove that they had no Jewish blood, along with this the standards for admission were tightened up.
  
  The requirements for recruits wanting to join the units that became the Waffen SS were,
  
  1) No criminal record.
  2) Prove their 'Aryan' backgrounds.
  3) They had to be physically fit.
  4) They had to satisfy a height restriction.
  
  It was only for a short period that a man would not be accepted if he had even a single filling and then it only applied to the Leibstandarte which of course acted as Hitlers bodyguard.
  
  Their was no 'initiation test' as you put it, what you are referring to is the intensive combat course that all officers had to take after receiving their SS Daggers, part of this course was what they called a "courage test", which included having to dig a foxhole infront of an advancing tank before it reached you, aswell as removing the pin from a grenade balanced on top of your steel helmet and standing still while it exploded, more important than these though were the live firing excercises with machine guns, mortars and artillery which were designed to introduce the officers to something akin to genuine battlefield conditions.
  
  While this may sound stupid now it did bring forward a generation of young Colonels and Generals whose leadership powers were probably unmatched in the army, such famous names as, Fritz Witt, Fritz Klingenburg, Kurt 'Panzer' Meyer and Otto Kumm to name just a few.
  
  As I said in an earlier post not all the units in the Waffen SS were formed by them, this included the "Charlemagne" (French) which had orginally been the LVF in the army, although they were expanded once in the Waffen SS.
  
  As to you mentioning the "Britische Freikorps" all I'll say is that if anybody wants "serious" information them their are plenty of books and other sources of information available.

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  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006

  Hi steelers
  
  thanks for that
  
  i would have thought that my description of an initiation test matched your description of the intensive com8at course
  
  the 8ritish Freeikorps werent far from my description - it was an a8solute disaster for the hun-where was the use of it ???? - it never actually made it into com8at - of 300 volunteers a8out 50 were accepted - pro8aly not an elite unit
  
  amazing was the recruitment of the european divisions
  

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  Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006

  Hi Stalteriisok,
  
  Whilst I can see what you were getting at with 'initiation', I think the word gives a differant meaning, to most people an initiation ceremony is something that an individual has to go through to be accepted as a member of a club or fraternity house for example, this was not the case with the Waffen SS recruits.
  
  I agree that the Britische Freikorps was useless but it was more of a propaganda tool than a serious combat unit.
  
  Some of the foriegn divisions recruited by the Waffen SS had excellent combat records amongst them units like the "Wiking", "Nord", "Nordland", "Wallonien" and "Gotz von Berlichingen".

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  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Thursday, 25th May 2006

  Steelers
  
  nice call
  but if u failed having tanks run over u and grenades exploding on ur head u were out !!!
  
  cant remeber where i got the fillings rejection from but will def take ur answer
  
  what is amazing is the performance of the foreign SS divs = the dutch one was an awesome unit in combat - what changed that then ???
  
  i always laugh about the british SS= the average british tom worried more about bird fags and
  booze = devotion to the dwarf was well down the line lol

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  Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Sunday, 28th May 2006

  High dental standards and a tiny British contingent, spot the link

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  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Sunday, 28th May 2006

  

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  Posted by jberie (U3925952) on Tuesday, 30th May 2006

  I have read, somewhere, that IQ was not a factor in SS membership. True?

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  Posted by Sabre-Wulf (U2142937) on Wednesday, 31st May 2006

  A slight digression, but I've just finished reading Sven Hassell's "Legion of the Damned", in which he writes that there was such hatred and animosity between the SS Units and the other German units on the Eastern Front, that on occassion gun battles between the Germans and Russians were suspended to allow the Germans to shoot SS soldiers who tried to join in.
  
  Does anyone know if there is any truth to this, or if it is substantiated by other accounts?

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• Message 21

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  Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Wednesday, 31st May 2006

  Jberie,
  
  "I have read, somewhere, that IQ was not a factor in SS membership. True?"
  
  It isn´t true, because how would you explaine that Medicals like Josef Mengele had could done such attrocities as he did in the Concentration Camps? He also has been a member of the SS.
  
  Inteligent people were welcome to the SS as far as they were not opposed to Nazism. This was not only a question of IQ, it was more about loyality connected with IQ and this brought up some very dangerous and ruthless characters.
  
  Regards
  
  Thomas

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  Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Wednesday, 31st May 2006

  Sabre-Wulf,
  
  You do realise that the Sven Hassel books are works of fiction very loosely based around real events, which he picked up from speaking to WWII veterans, they should be taken with a large pinch of salt.
  
  I have an extensive reference library on the German Army and Waffen SS and whilst on occassion there was a certain animosity between some members of the "old school" Prussian officer corps and the upstart young commanders of Waffen SS units, I have never come across incidents like that you mentioned. In fact on many occasions army units were grateful to have Waffen SS units serving with/attached to them because of their fearsome combat reputation.

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  Posted by Sabre-Wulf (U2142937) on Wednesday, 31st May 2006

  Thanks for this. I was aware most of his stuff was fiction, but thought "Legion of the Damned" was one of the more truthful ones.
  
  I must admit it didn't sound particularly realistic, but wasn't too sure. You'd have though any warm body with a gun would have been welcomed at that stage of the war in the east, even if they were SS!

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  Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Wednesday, 31st May 2006

  IMO the "Waffen-SS" was the best fighting force, man-for-man in WWII. I once liked to play baord game battles. To defeat a Waffen-SS force you needed at least a 2:1 advantage. From all I have studied every nation except England had citizens serving in one or more of the divisions. It is estimated that about 5,000 citizens of the U.S. were serving in it.
  
  Yes, they were more than worth their money to Germany. As a defense force they could only be compared to the Japanesse soldiers in their stuborness and determination. While there can be no doubt that many of the Waffen-SS soldiers committed terrible attroticities, that does not take away from their abilities as soldiers.

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