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Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 1.聽
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Monday, 15th May 2006
for any length of time and not be hated by the occupied?
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Message 2
Posted by Colquhoun (U3935535) ** on Monday, 15th May 2006
Yes, but only under limited circumstances and only with a very long occupation. As an example I will use England.
England was conqured and occupied by the Normans in 1066, however over the centuries the Normans became so integrated with the English population that they effectively became English.
This was accentuated with the loss of the Normans' orginal homeland in Normandy so that the Normans had little choice but to become English.Link to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 3
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Monday, 15th May 2006
But you could argue that both the Welsh and the Scots still resent the English for occupying their countries, in the case of the Welsh almost 1000 years ago. The Native American are still treated as second class in their own land. I remember a cartoon many years ago of a Native American in full head dress sitting in New Yorks Times Square with a sign saying "Yankee go home."
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Message 4
Posted by Slimdaddy101 (U2553470) on Monday, 15th May 2006
Their is no one simple answer. Sometimes assimilation means the once invader is now integrated as sometimes happened for example during the Vikings era. Other Vikings of course never integrated. Or during the Raj (although that may not be considered an invasion in the normal use of the word) the Brits were integrated but outsiders. Both rulers and natives lived side by side in relative harmony (for a while at least). In Ireland however it is a different ballgame altogether and the Brits were certainly hated from the onset and until the present day in some quarters.
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Message 5
Posted by Colquhoun (U3935535) ** on Monday, 15th May 2006
But in neither the Scots or Welsh case was there any real integration between occupier and occupied as there was in England in the middle ages.
In Scotland's case the occupation was brief and there was a constant struggle for independance going on. (William Wallace, Robert the Bruce et al)Link to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 6
Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Monday, 15th May 2006
There are some people in this country (UK)who equate the ruling 2% of the country - the aristocracy who own most of the land, with the Normans. The reasoning is that they have basically intermarried and only rarely do they allow their blood stock to be tainted with commoners blood (Saxon). Whether this view is correct or not is open to debate.....
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Message 7
Posted by Slimdaddy101 (U2553470) on Monday, 15th May 2006
Colquhoun,
I think in the cases you cited you would have to look at the occupier - Edward I ruled in a way that could only inspire the likes of Wallace. A more benevolant King may have had less trouble integrating and living in harmony. Of coure this is a mute point as we shall never know, but you see what I mean.Link to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 8
Posted by Erik Lindsay (U231970) on Monday, 15th May 2006
If you go back far enough in time, I suppose you could find instances of where it has worked out.
The people of the nation once known as Gaul have been occupied by Romans, and when the Romans left, they were invaded by Franks, Goths, Vandals...whatever. Are the original Gauls related in any way to the those invading tribes? Because whether they are or not, there doesn't seem to be any internal resentment based on ethnic origin (although from what I've seen, Parisians hate everyone). What about the Iberian Peninsula? The Visigothic invaders brushed aside people of Semitic/Roman background and aside from the Basques (sp?) things seem to be ethnically peaceful there.
I always thought that the barbarians who invaded the western zones of Europe after the Roman Empire collapsed were from someplace other than the nations they took over, yet in France, Poland, Holland, Spain, etc things seem to be ok.
The Mongolian tribes that invaded Russia were eventually driven out, but they occupied the area for a long time and through intermarriage seem to have been absorbed. There appears to be a great deal of oriental blood in the peoples of western Russia, yet they evidently live in harmony.
Does anyone have any idea what kind of people, from an ethnic point of view, the original Egyptians were? And is there internal resentment in that area for the take-overs that have occurred and does anyone know who took over what from whom?
The Balkans and the nations(?) of the Middle East are such a melting pot there seems to be no end to the feuding both based on ethnicity and religion, but who occupied whom and over what are they fighting? Is it really clear to anyone?
As for Native Americans/Canadians...there was a time when they were universally despised by their conquerors (and the feeling was certainly mutual). Being called a half-breed a hundred years ago was considered a mortal insult by the white community, but today, most Americans/Canadians of European ancestry are proud to announce that they have native American/Canadian blood in their veins. I would imagine the same is, or someday will be, true in New Zealand and Australia, although I must defer to peoples of those countries. Any of them around our board here who can help?Link to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 9
Posted by Colquhoun (U3935535) ** on Monday, 15th May 2006
It may have been possible but only if Edward hadn't invaded Scotland e.g.
John Baliol the Scots king had paid homage to Edward when he was crowned. Subsequent to this Edward undermined John's position by overruling some of John's rulings and then demanding that Scotland send troops to fight the French alongside the English. If Edward had played it a bit more softely and not of undermined King John then they may have been an eventual unification of the crowns without any of the centuries long conflicts and presentday resentment.Link to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 10
Posted by Colquhoun (U3935535) ** on Monday, 15th May 2006
On Egytians -
The original Egyptians were the Copts. In the 7th century AD they were living under the Romans, then the Arabs invaded and gradually over the next fourteen hundred years assimulated most of the original population. Currently I think about 12-15% of the Eyptian population is Coptic.
There was a lot of resentment for the first few hundred years of Arab rule with a number of revolts, even as late as the 13th century there are instances of the Copts assisting the Crusaders. However after that they became a minoroty in Egypt and were thus not able to effectively revolt.Link to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 11
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Monday, 15th May 2006
I was actually referring to modern times. In particular, the U.S. and U.K. occupation of Iraq. It does seem the longer we are there the less we are liked.
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Message 12
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Monday, 15th May 2006
But why should today be any different than yesterday. Britain and the U S along with the Russians, occupied Germany for over 50 years, although later the UK/US became something else. Britain spent years controling the same countries we are fighting in now. But then the deaths of a few soldiers would have not even made the back pages of the Times. It would have been just another skirmish in the Empire. Now of course everything is live. So, do we pull out and let the factions kill each other, and a few years down the line we have another Saddem or Muler that wants to make the whole world bow towards his version of the Koran. We could of course adopt the old Liverpool City Police way of policing. Stand round the corner while both sides kick the living daylights out of each other. Then when it is over, go and arrest whoever is still standing. Worked for me.
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Message 13
Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Monday, 15th May 2006
"Is it possible for one nation to occupy another for any length of time and not be hated by the occupied?"
Ask Tas about the British.
PS What's happened to the add original message option???Link to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 14
Posted by Mark (U1347077) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
Probably not. It seems that the successful means of controlling a region is to have more people in it than there are indigenous people. I'm thinking of the British Empire - even if nations were (temporarily) worse off, they prefered being independent. However, if you can swamp the locals - like in Canada/US/Oz - then its loyal, or at least for longer until they feel a separate culture.
The key would be 'Hearts and Minds' - treating the populace as fairly as possible and allowing a degree of autonomy. I don't know how independent Scotland would like to be from the United Kingdom but there hasn't been the kind of trouble that plagued Ireland/Northern Ireland and surely that's down to the way Westminster treated the two countries.
Certainly there was a lot more resistance to Nazi rule during WW2 once their reprisals became harsh.
It seems to work, the ruled have to have exactly the same rights as the rulers.Link to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 15
Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
"There are some people in this country (UK)who equate the ruling 2% of the country - the aristocracy who own most of the land, with the Normans. The reasoning is that they have basically intermarried and only rarely do they allow their blood stock to be tainted with commoners blood (Saxon). Whether this view is correct or not is open to debate....."
Tennyson refers to simple faith being more important than Norman blood, so that might be an indication that the above was indeed held to be so. Also, the theme of the 'Norman Yoke' was long held as a popular resistance to the upper class domination of England.
But I think the question itself is a very interesting one. I guess the Roman's lasted a good few hundred years as official conquerors and rulers (though taking pains to win over the top locals of course, and romanise them - the flip side of going native, I guess!)
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Message 16
Posted by Buckskinz (U3036516) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
This is not fair.
Benedict -jesw1962 -Arnold has presented you with an opportunity to bad mouth his country and he will get miffed if y鈥檃al persist with this History stuff. C鈥檓on now, lets get with the intended spirit of the thread.
鈥淒own Down Boosh鈥 鈥淒own Down Boosh鈥
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Message 17
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
With all respect, please read my post on "Put up or shut Up!"
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Message 18
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
that thread is on the other history board. Sorry
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Message 19
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
'Yes, but only under limited circumstances and only with a very long occupation. As an example I will use England.
England was conqured and occupied by the Normans in 1066, however over the centuries the Normans became so integrated with the English population that they effectively became English.
This was accentuated with the loss of the Normans' orginal homeland in Normandy so that the Normans had little choice but to become English.'
-+ the Ukraine when the Lithuanian prince Algerdas during 1340s had been occupied Ukraine.In 1363 Great Algerdas had defeated the Golden Horde and then founded the Great Lithuanian Principality,one of the biggest in Europe, which included in itself the modern lands of Lithuania,Belorussia and Ukraine.The Lithuanians were pagans in those times... but very soon they accepted the Christianity as their religion ....that was the religion of the Ukrainians.+ the Ukrainian language became the official language of The Great Lithuanian Principality!Link to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 20
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
yes,the Ukrainian language became the official language of The Great Lithuanian Principality! ....and the Belorussian..
What a surprise,Luka-'historian'!Link to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 21
Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
Hi Jack,
Just quoting from Wikipedia (probably written by a Lithuanian).
"Unlike his descendants, Algirdas wisely vacillated between Muscovy and Poland, spoke amongst others the Ruthenian language, and was more inclined to follow the majority of his pagan and Orthodox subjects rather than to alienate them by promoting Roman Catholicism. There are no evidences that he was baptised at all. His son Jogaila, however, ascended the Polish throne, and was the founder of the dynasty which ruled Poland for nearly 200 years."
The fact of the matter is that his son Jogaila (W鲁adys鲁aw Jagie鲁鲁o in Polish)was a pagan until he converted to Catholicism and the rest is history, as they say. Lithuania is a Catholic country to this day. Jagie鲁鲁o's descendents spoke Polish, as did most of the Lithuanian nobles (indeed they became members of Polish 'clans'). Oh, and as I'm sure you know, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania soon ceded its Ukrainian conquests to Polish administration (the Crown Lands). Not that I'm saying this was necessarily a good thin a good thing.
Cheers, JozefLink to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 22
Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
re: message 6
Hi Eliza6eth
Good point you make there about the Romans. I think the big difference is that the Romans (generally) made life a whole lot better for the peoples they conquered - roads, aqueducts, sanitation etc. to paraphrase Monty Python, whereas The Normans (generally) abused and tyrannised the Saxon population.Link to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 23
Posted by Sabre-Wulf (U2142937) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
And I'm sure the people appreciated the roads and sanitation. Right up until the point they were crucified or thrown to the lions for sport.
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Message 24
Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
(generally)
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Message 25
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
I am certain the Iraqi's appreciate all the services we are providing them.
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Message 26
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
'The fact of the matter is that his son Jogaila (W鲁adys鲁aw Jagie鲁鲁o in Polish)was a pagan until he converted to Catholicism and the rest is history, as they say. Lithuania is a Catholic country to this day. Jagie鲁鲁o's descendents spoke Polish, as did most of the Lithuanian nobles (indeed they became members of Polish 'clans'). Oh, and as I'm sure you know, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania soon ceded its Ukrainian conquests to Polish administration (the Crown Lands). Not that I'm saying this was necessarily a good thin a good thing.'
Hi Josef,
yes,in 1385 Jogaila was married the Polish Queen Jadviga to sign the Krevsky's Unia which was directed against the aggressive plans of Germans who threatened the both of countries as to the Lithuania so to the Poland with written obligation into to make the Lithuanians by the Catolics.But these years from 1363 to 1385 really worth to mention about.
P.S. I was so glad to know about THAT monument in Poland.Thanks friends.Link to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 27
Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
"P.S. I was so glad to know about THAT monument in Poland.Thanks friends."
Yes, when they showed the ceremony on TV, I thought of you. You use the name UPA with pride, whilst I am extremely proud of the fact that both my parents and my Grandmother were active members of the AK. You do not associate the UPA with the slaughter of Poles and I do not associate the AK with the slaughter of Ukrainians, but unfortunately such things did happen. In our past histories there have been many bloody events, but the important thing is that we can recognise these facts and make up. That happens too often between nations.
All the best from your Polish friend, JozefLink to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 28
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
My grandad was OUNer..The gaining of independence is the process trial and error,learning as we go,so to speak....Ukrainians and Poles are being the real friends.
P.S. Our relations with Russia from day to day are becoming worse and worse....
Jack.Link to this forum: Is it possible for one nation to occupy another
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Message 29
Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
And I'm sure the people appreciated the roads and sanitation. Right up until the point they were crucified or thrown to the lions for sport
I think it was only the local ruling classes the Romans wooed over to them, and they were probably quite happy seeing slaves and minions crucified or eaten...? The celts probably even approved - I mean, they were seriously into human sacrifice, weren't they? Probably should have converted the Romans to the exciting new spectator sport of Bog-Strangling!
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Message 30
Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
Gosh, just realised - where is Niklaos again? One obvious example of long-term occupation and conquest is the Ottoman Turks of Greece. About 400 years, I think. Nightmare.
I know Poland's been mentioned, but that's another prime example as well. No indepdence (bar brief tainted Napoleonic bit) from mid-l8C till l989?? (oh, and the interwar interlude)
And Austria ruled loads of Central Europe for well over a hundred years too? And the Spanish in a lot of Italy? And the Spanish over Portugal for quite a long time too?
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Message 31
Posted by GreenDoctor (U3913526) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
Get your history straight. The English did not conquer Scotland or occupy it, even after 1745. Entirely different history, perhaps you mean Ireland. Your not all like George Bush are you?
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Message 32
Posted by GreenDoctor (U3913526) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
Not at all. Scotland was not like Wales or Ireland, so no English king however nice and jovial could be king. The Scots had one king and he was scottish. A more benevolent king would have had the same trouble.
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Message 33
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Tuesday, 16th May 2006
surely as from 44ad to 410ad the british were under Roman rule they should have been fond of the opressors in the end - life MUST have been better - trade etc
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Message 34
Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Monday, 29th May 2006
<QUOTE/>Is it possible for one nation to occupy another for any length of time and not be hated by the occupied?</QUOTE><BR /><BR /><LINK href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbhistory/F2233809?thread=3081731">http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbhistory/F2233809?thread=3081731</LINK>
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