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Political asylum for whom?

• Message 1.Ìý

  Posted by Dirk Marinus (U1648073) on Monday, 1st May 2006

  Asylum seekers can cover a wide spectrum , however this post will only concern itself with political asylum seekers.
  
  Western countries have for many many years been granting political asylum to foreign politicians ,authors and people in that catagory who on acoount of their verbal or written words were being persecuted purely for their political views.
  
  Many of them had during their opposition to their country's never reverted to acts of terrorism and therefore were not wanted for criminal offences.
  
  And as such I personally have no problem that people like that are granted asylum.
  
  But I am not that certain that those who are known to have committed acts of terrorism in their country should be given asylum in other countries.
  
  There are quite a few individuals living here in Britain ( and possible other Western countries) who have taken active part in terror acts which resulted in fatalities of innocent people.
  
  Yes it may be considered that they were opposing the ruling government but the fact that their actions could be described as murder should be held against them when asking for asylum.
  
  For example Russia ,Italy and Argentina have over the last two years have asked the Britisg government for extradition of people who are known to have been instrumental in placing explosive devices which killed innocent people i.e 89 In Italy, 87 in Argentina, and are now living in Britain.
  
  Britain holds the view that, if there is doubt of a fair trial or torture no person will be extradited when that is asked for.
  Of course various groups Amnesty , Liberty . Human Rights etc will applaud this view.
  
  But surely people who use violence and terror tactics know what they are doing, and if they are prepared to kill innocent people in their attempt to overthrow the present government, then they should be prepared to accept full responsibility and not escape to another country.
  
  Should Western countries grant asylum to people who use extreme violence or should they be extradited?
  
  
  
  

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by DaveMBA (U1360771) on Monday, 1st May 2006

  One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, so it is hard to make such distinctions without reflecting on the regime concerned.
  
  I do however think that all asylum seekers for whatever reason should be here on a temporary basis and that if the situation calms down, they go back. If they marry a UK citizen or have kids, then they still all go back. Too many of them use it as a cover to get in here ahead of people who apply properly and then start making trouble for UK with the other country.

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by Dirk Marinus (U1648073) on Monday, 1st May 2006

  One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, so it is hard to make such distinctions without reflecting on the regime concerned.
  
  I do however think that all asylum seekers for whatever reason should be here on a temporary basis and that if the situation calms down, they go back. If they marry a UK citizen or have kids, then they still all go back. Too many of them use it as a cover to get in here ahead of people who apply properly and then start making trouble for UK with the other country. Ìý
  
  
  
  
  Dave ,
  
  
  Yours........One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.........
  
  
  
  I did mention that the persons I am referring to are those who were guilty of terrorist acts which resulted in murder of innocent bystanders.
  
  Why are they given asylum and not extradited to the country where the crime was committed.
  
  The excuse given that they could face torture or not be given a fair trial is in my opinion not a valuable excuse.
  
  

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by overtheriver (U3153434) on Tuesday, 2nd May 2006

  suppose, I am living in one of these countries with the evil oppressive government. I decide to assassinate a minister in this government. I plant a roadside bomb in a location where the minister is supposed to drive past. The bomb goes off slightly too late, missing the minister but killing four passers-by. I have now murdered innocent civilians. So the government sends it's henchmen out to get revenge on me I try to flee the country. But I'm not allowed into any other country because I have carried out an act of terrorism.
  
  I didn't mean to kill the other people. Sure, I knew it was possible, but if it meant the death of this evil minister then surely it would be worth it. And now you are consigning me to torture and death. Cheers.
  
  
  
  But surely people who use violence and terror tactics know what they are doing, and if they are prepared to kill innocent people in their attempt to overthrow the present government, then they should be prepared to accept full responsibility and not escape to another country.
  
  Ìý

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Dirk Marinus (U1648073) on Tuesday, 2nd May 2006

  suppose, I am living in one of these countries with the evil oppressive government. I decide to assassinate a minister in this government. I plant a roadside bomb in a location where the minister is supposed to drive past. The bomb goes off slightly too late, missing the minister but killing four passers-by. I have now murdered innocent civilians. So the government sends it's henchmen out to get revenge on me I try to flee the country. But I'm not allowed into any other country because I have carried out an act of terrorism.
  
  I didn't mean to kill the other people. Sure, I knew it was possible, but if it meant the death of this evil minister then surely it would be worth it. And now you are consigning me to torture and death. Cheers.
  
  
  
  But surely people who use violence and terror tactics know what they are doing, and if they are prepared to kill innocent people in their attempt to overthrow the present government, then they should be prepared to accept full responsibility and not escape to another country.
  
  Ìý Ìý
  
  
  
  
  IF you want to play with fire you must expect that you can have an accident and get burnt.
  
  Don't run away and let someone else pay for what YOU have created.
  
  

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by DaveMBA (U1360771) on Tuesday, 2nd May 2006

  Supposing the Iraqi Shi'ites had attempted to kill but got a few civilians. Well, we know Saddam would send his men round to teach them a lesson, but whther these men were terrorists or freedom fighters would of course depend on the US view of erm, Saddam really. Had they tried it in about 1982, the US would have said they were Iranian-backed terrorists.

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 2nd May 2006

  "But surely people who use violence and terror tactics know what they are doing, and if they are prepared to kill innocent people in their attempt to overthrow the present government, then they should be prepared to accept full responsibility and not escape to another country."
  
  A laudably silly view, if I may say so. You seem to believe that a terrorist/freedom fighter should accept that his/her action should be a one-off event, and they should also be ready to be punished for their deed in the country they enacted it. Suicide missions, in other words.
  
  While your view of terrorists is obvious, your attitude towards campaigns of liberation is naive in the extreme.

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Buckskinz (U3036516) on Tuesday, 2nd May 2006

  
  
  For example Russia ,Italy and Argentina have over the last two years have asked the Britisg government for extradition of people who are known to have been instrumental in placing explosive devices which killed innocent people i.e 89 In Italy, 87 in Argentina, and are now living in Britain.
  
  Ìý
  
  There is an IRA member that escaped from a British prison living in I believe California. I am not condoning his situation, but as he is refused recognition as a political prisoner among other human rights violation claims, he will not be returned to the UK by the US Govt. This has caused an outcry in the UK. What is the difference between him and the above circumstances?
  
  Cheers, Matt.

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Dirk Marinus (U1648073) on Wednesday, 3rd May 2006

  "But surely people who use violence and terror tactics know what they are doing, and if they are prepared to kill innocent people in their attempt to overthrow the present government, then they should be prepared to accept full responsibility and not escape to another country."
  
  A laudably silly view, if I may say so. You seem to believe that a terrorist/freedom fighter should accept that his/her action should be a one-off event, and they should also be ready to be punished for their deed in the country they enacted it. Suicide missions, in other words.
  
  While your view of terrorists is obvious, your attitude towards campaigns of liberation is naive in the extreme.Ìý
  
  
  nordmann,
  
  
  What be your opinion if one or more people organised and were succesfull in bomb attacks here in the U.K killing innocent passersby and then escaped to Holland/Belgium/Germany or another country, and that country would refuse British requests for arrest and extradition?
  
  

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by U1645144 (U1645144) on Wednesday, 3rd May 2006

  "But surely people who use violence and terror tactics know what they are doing, and if they are prepared to kill innocent people in their attempt to overthrow the present government, then they should be prepared to accept full responsibility and not escape to another country."
  
  A laudably silly view, if I may say so. You seem to believe that a terrorist/freedom fighter should accept that his/her action should be a one-off event, and they should also be ready to be punished for their deed in the country they enacted it. Suicide missions, in other words.
  
  While your view of terrorists is obvious, your attitude towards campaigns of liberation is naive in the extreme.Ìý
  
  
  nordmann,
  
  
  What be your opinion if one or more people organised and were succesfull in bomb attacks here in the U.K killing innocent passersby and then escaped to Holland/Belgium/Germany or another country, and that country would refuse British requests for arrest and extradition?
  
  Ìý
  
  
  
  Just for starters :
  
  Why has the British government not extradited:
  
  Akhmed Zakaev, Robert Fiore, Massimo Marsello, Moutaz Alhallan Dabas, Faryadadi Sarwarzardad, Farj Hassan , Boris Berezovsky and don't forget Hade Soleimanpour who was released on a £750.000 bail and last seen leaving the country in a cloud of dust.
  
  Is it pssible that Boris Berezovsky's personal fortune of £800 million has anything to do with him being allowed to live in the UK?
  
  
  Remember the saying "big dogs don't bite each other"
  
  

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Wednesday, 3rd May 2006

  
  What be your opinion if one or more people organised and were succesfull in bomb attacks here in the U.K killing innocent passersby and then escaped to Holland/Belgium/Germany or another country, and that country would refuse British requests for arrest and extradition?
  Ìý
  
  To be quite honest my opinion would depend on the circumstances. Who are these 'people' you refer to? Why did they plant bombs in the UK? Why did they seek sanctuary in fellow EU states? Why would these states defy EU law and refuse to extradite them? I am finding it hard to see a realistic scenario for your hypothesis in this day and age.
  
  However, to be a little more realsitic about it, I am Irish and old enough to recall when quite respectable and responsible civic leaders in Ireland objected strongly to the extradition of terrorist 'suspects' to the UK, given the latter's abysmal record - as it stood then - in prosecuting innocent people and detaining countless more without trial. Heinous acts were committed against totally innocent people in the name of 'uniting Ireland' and equally heinous acts against people just as innocent were committed in return. In the context of those times, and those circumstances, I could well understand your scenario and see a positive in the development you outline. Extradition battles are international by nature and bring international attention to bear on the grievances that have led to the terrorist activity. In the light of that attention maybe a solution can come that bit nearer.

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by U1645144 (U1645144) on Thursday, 4th May 2006

  
  What be your opinion if one or more people organised and were succesfull in bomb attacks here in the U.K killing innocent passersby and then escaped to Holland/Belgium/Germany or another country, and that country would refuse British requests for arrest and extradition?
  Ìý
  
  To be quite honest my opinion would depend on the circumstances. Who are these 'people' you refer to? Why did they plant bombs in the UK? Why did they seek sanctuary in fellow EU states? Why would these states defy EU law and refuse to extradite them? I am finding it hard to see a realistic scenario for your hypothesis in this day and age.
  
  However, to be a little more realsitic about it, I am Irish and old enough to recall when quite respectable and responsible civic leaders in Ireland objected strongly to the extradition of terrorist 'suspects' to the UK, given the latter's abysmal record - as it stood then - in prosecuting innocent people and detaining countless more without trial. Heinous acts were committed against totally innocent people in the name of 'uniting Ireland' and equally heinous acts against people just as innocent were committed in return. In the context of those times, and those circumstances, I could well understand your scenario and see a positive in the development you outline. Extradition battles are international by nature and bring international attention to bear on the grievances that have led to the terrorist activity. In the light of that attention maybe a solution can come that bit nearer.Ìý
  
  
  
  
  nordmann,
  
  
  With ref to your.........
  
  Who are these 'people' you refer to? Why did they plant bombs in the UK? .........
  
  
  
  I never said that they planted bombs in the UK, I only asked you for your opinion if someone planted bombs and escaped to a foreign country.
  
  
  You other question i.e ......Who are these 'people' you refer to? ....
  
  I am surprised you ask the question but nevertheless:
  
  Akhmed Zakaev war lord in Chechia, his terror attacks killed many people and is wanted in Russia.
  
  Hade Soleimanpour, Iranian diplomat,a suspect in the bomb attack on a Jewish synagogue in Rio de Janeiro 89 fatalities, wanted in Argentina
  
  Robert Fiore and Massimo Marsello are suspects in the 1980 Bologna bomb attack , 85 fatalities , both wanted in Italy.
  
  Moutaz Almallah Dabas could be
  be extradited to Spain as it seems he has lost his appeal against being extradited. Is a suspect of the Madrid train bomb attack, fatalities 191
  
  The other characters are all wanted in Russia for various crimes of which fraud and tax evasion could be the main reason for seeking asylum in the UK .
  
  
  
  

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 4th May 2006

  If you look again you'll see that I am answering the post above yours in my last statement Nkosi Enkulu. That's why I purposely set in the question asked of me.

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