Wars and ConflictsÌý permalink
China superpower???????????????????
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by DocThere (U3630202) on Friday, 21st April 2006
What do you think of china being able to kill america? Becoming a superpower. lets start a debate. i think that britain could beat china alone... i saw on the news pictures of chinas huge missles etc amazing
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Message 2
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Friday, 21st April 2006
.................................................
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not really no....................................
britain isnt a world power by any means..........
and china would have to icrease its military spending about 30-fold........................... -
Message 3
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Friday, 21st April 2006
What do you think of china being able to kill america? Becoming a superpower. lets start a debate. i think that britain could beat china alone... i saw on the news pictures of chinas huge missles etc amazingÌý
Why would we want to defeat China?? They have a bad record for Human rights, freedom of speeech etc, but they have a bit of the 'British' seed in them that could be nourished. Give them a chance. -
Message 4
Posted by SlackBabbath (U2776023) on Saturday, 22nd April 2006
Ecomonic superpower ?? Quite possibly, the only thing to hold them in check will be their next door neighbour India, who by a strange twist of fate are also in the ecomonic race for supremacy in the global market. Flooding the market with goods that cost pennies to produce & retail for a lot more pennies
The way i look at it is we will be turning the clock back some 2/300 years when the economic traffic was going in the opposite direction from West to East, & as we all know the Chinese have memories like elephants - they NEVER forget -
Message 5
Posted by DaveMBA (U1360771) on Sunday, 23rd April 2006
It is interesting that China owns most of the US foreign debt and so, could cause major problems in the US at the touch of a non-military button.
However, theior production is more problematic - Indian companies actually make money out of what they do, he Chinese sell at production cost and so make no real profit for reinvestment. I suspect that much of this will finish up like the 97 Asian crisis. -
Message 6
Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Sunday, 23rd April 2006
Hi Dave - IMO China stand to make a LOT of progress if Iran is economically sanctioned as China could step in and say we'll buy your oil for $10 less than world market price but you'll still be making money - would have an impact on other nations surely.
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Message 7
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Monday, 24th April 2006
What do you think of china being able to kill america? Becoming a superpower. lets start a debate. i think that britain could beat china alone... i saw on the news pictures of chinas huge missles etc amazingÌý
Are you refering to invading or defending. IMO the U.S. is not strong enough to invade and conquer China. Too large a nation and too many people. However, China is no offensive threat to any nation that does not share a common border with her. If China ever acquires a "Large Blue Water Navy" then it will be time to worry about her. -
Message 8
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Monday, 24th April 2006
Assuming all the british army standing on a level plain and the chinese army advancing across it. With no nuclear weaopns involved, and the SA80 having a remarkably good day and not jamming once.
I think that not only would you find that theres more chinese than bullets, but they are breeding faster than we can kill them. -
Message 9
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Monday, 24th April 2006
Gentleman: IMO we need to decide whether we are talking about offense of defense. China has no real offensive punch. Plus she has been very conservative about using her troops outside her borders since 1948. She sent her troops into Korea in 1950 but only after we (the U.S.) had an army on her border with a general begging for permission to invade.
Other than that, all she has done is reclamed territories that had been taken from her drunig the previous two centuries.
I fully expect her to reclaim Formosa within the next twenty years. -
Message 10
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Monday, 24th April 2006
I agree, I was responding to the bit about britain doing it on its own. I mean we're good but not that good!
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Message 11
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Monday, 24th April 2006
If we are talking about invading China; then, IMO, there is no single nation on this earth that could successfully invade and occupy her.
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Message 12
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Monday, 24th April 2006
Its possible. But the butchers bill is going to be sky high. Its the only potential war I can think of where you would be mad if you didnt use biological weapons from moment one.
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Message 13
Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Monday, 24th April 2006
Has anyone here read Dragon-Strike? A great book relating to a war with China.
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Message 14
Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Monday, 24th April 2006
I can't see China needing to go to a shooting war with anyone. Like Japan, they're at war by other means. Economic.
Eliza -
Message 15
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 24th April 2006
That one did make me chuckle!!
Britain defeat China alone? You are having a laugh mate! As most of you I've chatted to before know, I don't put down Britain's armed forces (well, the Army anyway) given that I was once a member of them, but to take on China?? Come on, get real please!!
If China decided it wanted to invade the UK, they could set off on foot, and march all the way from China, across the Middle East, the Mediterranean and Europe, and NO ONE would be able to stop them. If they decided to nuke the UK, they could sink the islands if they felt like it! Talk about deluded! They could quite easily turn out an army with the same manpower as the entire UK! I mean come on, they have almost 2 BILLION people! The Yanks would have a tough job stopping them if they kicked off, so what chance would we have?
Silly Sausage Award (Second Class) duly awarded. -
Message 16
Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Monday, 24th April 2006
I can't see China needing to go to a shooting war with anyone. Like Japan, they're at war by other means. Economic.
·¡±ô¾±³ú²¹Ìý
Dragon-Strike uses the premise that China needing oil starts offensive operations in the Pacific Rim and South China Sea to secure these materials/resources.
but maybe a war between Russia and China might be more likely - after all it would take a VERY brave US Pres. to support action against China if China attacked Taiwan - but if S.Korea and Japan were involved then US intervention does become more likely.
But China has an advantage that it has a large minority population spread all thru Asia (and beyond) and although some of these people purport to be "anti-communist" how many are "fifth-columists" ready to take action - either economic, diplomatic or militarily? -
Message 17
Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Monday, 24th April 2006
This is something I wrote on this subject a while ago...
Couldn't find anything about this on here but I was wondering if anyone has read the book "DragonStrike"? Its a bit old but as I remember its a pretty good read and what i'd like to know is - is it likely?
I know China would have a hell of a lot to lose but we are so tied up in the mid-east and with N. Korea and we only need to see that China does need trillions of units of energy just to keep going (not withstanding development) and there are two places it could get it from - one being the oilfields in the South China sea as mentioned in DragonStrike and the other which I've always worried about - Russian Siberia - not too far away, pretty vast and therefore maybe Russia would come to a diplomatic solution after a short war. But if such a thing did occur would Russia just think "to hell with this" and blast a Chinese armoured force with a couple of tactical nuclear warheads.
I know it seems far fetched but if the security revolving around engery supply becomes a matter of national survival and you believe we have the upper hand in the middle-east then China will to be sure of it's energyu need to a source under PLA control (or at least pliable to their whims).
Feel free to rip this apart but Iran and N. Korea are a great distraction and every moment closer to the day when China moves onto the offensive is closer to the day that China has everything it needs in the locker to control swathes of the Pacific region. -
Message 18
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Monday, 24th April 2006
What do you think of china being able to kill america? Becoming a superpower. lets start a debate. i think that britain could beat china alone... i saw on the news pictures of chinas huge missles etc amazingÌý
if you think that the UK could beat the Chinese on our own then I seriously doubt that you are a real Doctor!!
Lets start a debate, "DocThere, idiot or not?" -
Message 19
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
What do you think of china being able to kill america? Becoming a superpower. lets start a debate. i think that britain could beat china alone... i saw on the news pictures of chinas huge missles etc amazingÌý
if you think that the UK could beat the Chinese on our own then I seriously doubt that you are a real Doctor!!
Lets start a debate, "DocThere, idiot or not?"
Ìý
although there was the period in the korean war where the 1 batt. glosters and a mortar platoon, totalling 600-odd men at the sart of the battle, stopped a 10,000 strong chinese army for like a week or somethin....read it on wiki, cant remember the details, and cant access wiki to verify them...long and short of it. we could not win, but to paraphrase theoden-king of rohan... "we would make such an end, as to be worthy of praise the world over" -
Message 20
Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Monday, 24th April 2006
Good quote Marduk - the stand is remembered by the Glosters being allowed a cap badge on front and back of their berets.
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Message 21
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
and the place is the only place in korea with an english name (evidently)-'tis called gloster hill...
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Message 22
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
didnt the glosters already have that honour for some act of bravery or other at alexandria??
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Message 23
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
of course, if the army they sent only outnumbered us by 15-20 to one we may have a chance....
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Message 24
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Monday, 24th April 2006
Good quote Marduk - the stand is remembered by the Glosters being allowed a cap badge on front and back of their berets.Ìý
i think you will find that the Gloucesters had that about 100 yrs before for an action in Egypt - the thin red line??
Thats why they kept the chinese off - they thought that there were twice as many of them
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Message 25
Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Monday, 24th April 2006
Good quote Marduk - the stand is remembered by the Glosters being allowed a cap badge on front and back of their berets.Ìý
i think you will find that the Gloucesters had that about 100 yrs before for an action in Egypt - the thin red line??
Thats why they kept the chinese off - they thought that there were twice as many of them
Ìý
oh well....but we salute their brave stand all the same. -
Message 26
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Monday, 24th April 2006
didnt the glosters already have that honour for some act of bravery or other at alexandria??Ìý
oops - sorry MR i have just realised u meant the 2 badges NOT Gloster hill -
Message 27
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
dont worry, we all make slip up's
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Message 28
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
hell, ive always believed that the end of britain in its current incarnation would result in the ruin of who-ever beat us, mainly cos of events like the last stand of the glosters, the 12 hundred scots who broke the mahratta's and all those other bits of history that made britain great...
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Message 29
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Monday, 24th April 2006
Gentleman: IMO we need to decide whether we are talking about offense of defense. China has no real offensive punch. Plus she has been very conservative about using her troops outside her borders since 1948. She sent her troops into Korea in 1950 but only after we (the U.S.) had an army on her border with a general begging for permission to invade.
Ìý
Hi JEWS1962
I understood that mcarthur drove the North Koreans back to very near the chinese border depite chinese warnings not to cross the 38th parellel and much to his and the UNs suprise 300000 chinese troops suddenly launched an onslaught and drove the UN backwards in quick time
there was never any intent to invade china - although Mcarthur had wanted the chinese supply bases for the NK bombed - a request refused by the US top brass -
Message 30
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Monday, 24th April 2006
Good quote Marduk - the stand is remembered by the Glosters being allowed a cap badge on front and back of their berets.Ìý
i think you will find that the Gloucesters had that about 100 yrs before for an action in Egypt - the thin red line??
Thats why they kept the chinese off - they thought that there were twice as many of them
Ìý
oh well....but we salute their brave stand all the same.Ìý
the korean war was where they got the "Glorious Glosters" nickname though - i am pretty sure
what does amuse me is apparently the reason the Glosters were not withdrawn was the US superior officers who asked how things were were told by the Glosters officer "Things are getting a bit sticky here" meaning in Brit speak - "the world is falling in" - but to the yanks they thought it meant - "a little bit uncomfortable but completely manageable" -
Message 31
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
hell, us brits call a torrential downpour a "spot of light drizzle" why not call, a situation that'll make you famous for dying a "little bit sticky here"????
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Message 32
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Monday, 24th April 2006
Good quote Marduk - the stand is remembered by the Glosters being allowed a cap badge on front and back of their berets.Ìý
AAHH yes!! The Glorious Glosters!!
I think the Front/Back cap badge comes from the days of Egypt, before they were actually called the Glosters. They were surrounded so they stood back to back and fought like Lions!!! But it may be Korea, I'm not too sure.......they were surrounded again there because they were ordered to hold their position regardless of cost.
The Korean war episode is Gloster Hill, Imjin River. Plenty of stuff available so I won't go into detail, and I get tears in my eyes as I swell with pride.......and more than a little annoyed that some of the wounded making back to our own lines were shot by an American patrol, thinking they were Chinese on the run.
Take a look at it if you get the time...it's a fantastic story, all too often overlooked.
All the best
Dan -
Message 33
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
if i remember rightly the world and his dog gave the glosters acclamation, medals and tea all round for the imjin river affair...
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Message 34
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Monday, 24th April 2006
oh yes, I forgot the "..things are getting a bit sticky here" message.
Just been overrun by thousands of Chinese, weapons jamming 'cos they were practically melting with the heat of constant firing, small groups cut off into little pockets of defensive ground, nearly out of ammo, and "...things are getting a bit sticky here" was hardly an accurate description of the situation!! -
Message 35
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
may not have been accurate, but it was british through and through....any other unit from the western hemisphere wouldve bee screaming out for help and retreating.....and if they werent, theyd make damn sure the world knew they where far up that famous creek!
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Message 36
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Monday, 24th April 2006
the glorious glosters goes into our glorious incidents folder
Dunkirk
tobruk
arnhem
charge of the light brigade
anything consistent there ?? -
Message 37
Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Monday, 24th April 2006
the glorious glosters goes into our glorious incidents folder
Dunkirk
tobruk
arnhem
charge of the light brigade
anything consistent there ??Ìý
the history of the Â鶹ԼÅÄ war message board. -
Message 38
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Monday, 24th April 2006
If I remember rightly, the overall commander (who's name escapes me) was well aware the Gloster's were in line for a major attack, and quite probably a serious pasting. But they were ordered to hold and buy time for the Americans who were preparing an attack of their own.
Stand your ground they were told, and stand their ground they did. Colonel Carne I think was the C.O. -
Message 39
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Monday, 24th April 2006
How about the Hook? or are we only allowed one from each war
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Message 40
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
the glorious glosters goes into our glorious incidents folder
Dunkirk
tobruk
arnhem
charge of the light brigade
anything consistent there ??Ìý
all of them involve brits of course!!!!!!!!!
all but 1 of the glorious events in history involved brits one way or another.... -
Message 41
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Tuesday, 25th April 2006
Good quote Marduk - the stand is remembered by the Glosters being allowed a cap badge on front and back of their berets.Ìý
thought that right was given them after the napoleonic wars as the cap badge on the back of thier caps is the Sphinx from giza (as is the front badge) I have a set of pre world war one gloster cap badges see -
Message 42
Posted by Scarboro (U2806863) on Tuesday, 25th April 2006
may not have been accurate, but it was british through and through....any other unit from the western hemisphere wouldve bee screaming out for help and retreating.....and if they werent, theyd make damn sure the world knew they where far up that famous creek!Ìý
Read up on the Canadians and Australians at Kapyong, attacked at the same time. The Canadians held, but had to call down artillery fire on their own positions to do it. (Kiwi gunners obliged.) The Australians had been reported as overrun and wiped out. The American commander fell off his chair the next day when the Australian commander phoned in and said that they were still there. Sorry - it is not just the Brits who can dig in and hold.
Regards
Brian -
Message 43
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Tuesday, 25th April 2006
what does amuse me is apparently the reason the Glosters were not withdrawn was the US superior officers who asked how things were were told by the Glosters officer "Things are getting a bit sticky here" meaning in Brit speak - "the world is falling in" - but to the yanks they thought it meant - "a little bit uncomfortable but completely manageable"
Ìý
yes well we always did practice understatement here in both public and state schools -
Message 44
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Tuesday, 25th April 2006
With respect: Every nstion's soldiers can and do make heroic stands if their flanks are covered or they can fortify themselves, and if there is enough artillery or air support.
One of the things I have always found amusing is to read any nations, and that includes the U.S., reports on a war. Normally it is their people who won it; and oh yes, there were some others there. -
Message 45
Posted by pop-picker (U1244478) on Wednesday, 26th April 2006
Back to the point briefly about Chinese capabilities did they not get a pasting from the Vietnamese when they invaded Northern Vietname over V's involvement in Cambodia and from India can't remember where or when but in the last 20-30 years. Sure their kit has improved but with so many people keen to make money and not interested in serving I think in offensive operations they might not have much "revolutionary zeal"
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Message 46
Posted by Scarboro (U2806863) on Wednesday, 26th April 2006
I agree that China has not demonstrated offensive military prowess. They did try to invade Vietnam, but quickly declared that they had "taught Vietnam a lesson" and returned to their own borders. The China - India border wars were a stalemate, as was the Korean war.
I would not underestimate the Chinese military, but I don't believe they intend any military adventures. I think their mission is mainly defending their borders and preventing internal rebellion. (They do see Taiwan as a rebellious province, but they are in no hurry to deal with the rebellion.)
I think China is becoming an economic power in the world, and looks to the military to protect the stability of their economy. Traditionally China has placed less emphasis on military affairs than Europe, and more emphasis on scholarly and commercial pursuits. They probably would not want to see their economic progress jeopardized by the risks inherent in a war, and they have had enough personal experience with wars in the past century to drive the point home.
Regards
Brian -
Message 47
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Wednesday, 26th April 2006
From what I have read there were approximately 40,000,000 Chinese murdered from 1936 to 1952. Approximately 20,000,000 were massacred by the Japanese and another 20,000,000 by the Maoists. (If you ever want to read about a horrible attroticity, read the book "The Rape of Nanking") IMO the Chinese history of the past eighty years is enough to make any society Zenophobic. (sp)
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Message 48
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 26th April 2006
the glorious glosters goes into our glorious incidents folder
Dunkirk
tobruk
arnhem
charge of the light brigade
anything consistent there ??Ìý
the history of the Â鶹ԼÅÄ war message board.Ìý
and they were all losess
the glorious glosters goes into our glorious incidents folder
Dunkirk
tobruk
arnhem
charge of the light brigade
anything consistent there ??Ìý
the history of the Â鶹ԼÅÄ war message board.Ìý -
Message 49
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Thursday, 27th April 2006
yeah, weve had more glorious defeats than america has won wars unassisted!
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Message 50
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Thursday, 4th May 2006
The problem with that statement is how many nations won, or lost, wars alone?
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