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Who were the best naval commanders of WW2

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Erik Lindsay (U231970) on Sunday, 16th April 2006

  Having discussed army commanders let's now shift to the Navy types. The Battle of the Atlantic was the longest and most bitterly-fought of the entire war and someone had to command the struggles that took place there. There were fights in the Med, in the South Atlantic, and a tremendous number in the Pacific...the majority on this board seem to concentrate on the European war and to generally ignore the battles in the Pacific theatre, but a great deal went on there. So suppose we shift our attention from the ground fighting and take a deeper look (no pun intended) at the sea battles.
  
  Whom do you like? And whom do you not like?

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  Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Sunday, 16th April 2006

  Adm. Mark "Pete" Mitscher - Carrier admiral that commanded the US fleet at the Battles off Saipan and in the Leyte Gulf (if memory serves right) - a true revolutionary when it came to application carrier combat forces.
  
  I'd also have to say GAdm. Karl Doenitz - he master-minded together with some great commanders the alomst successful U-Boat campaign which came closer than we'd like to remember to bringing the war to it's end.
  
  Historically can we go further than Adm. Nelson - Trafalger anyone?
  
  I can't remember the guys name off the top of my head but the Admiral in charge of the Union-side ironclad (USS Monitor or something like that?) in the US Civil War for keeping the faith in something totally revolutionary - which while it didn't win the war certainly showed the day of the wooden ship was over.

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  Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Sunday, 16th April 2006

  Another WW2 admiral that has to be mentioned is Admiral Sir Andrew Brown Cunningham (ABC) - RN Adm. who fought in the Med. throughout WW2 - pretty good commander by all accounts.

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  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Sunday, 16th April 2006

  Interesting question as always Erik,
  
  So,
  
  British - Cunningham (although I think that Vian deserves a mention as do Admirals Noble and Horton)
  American - Spruance (although it would be churlish not to also mention Nimitz)
  German - Doenitz
  Japanese - Yamamoto (anyone in the military who was considered by the enemy to be so important that they take special measures to arrange his death has to be included)
  
  Actually I've changed my mind for British, it is going to be Vian, look up his quote at Salerno, it's tipped the balance for me.
  
  The ones I don't like, well, is it just me or was there less back biting amongst the naval contingent?
  
  However Pound and his actions around PQ17 leave a nasty taste in my mouth. Apologies for concentrating on the Royal Navy.
  
  Cheers AA.
  

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  Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Sunday, 16th April 2006

  No question. Captain Johnie Walker R N DSO and 3 bars. rewrote the book on U boat hunting. Worked himeself to death just before he was due to get his flag rank and take a task force eastwards.
  

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  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Sunday, 16th April 2006

  Excellent suggestion grumpyfred,
  
  Needed to come back as I realised I hadn't mentioned anyone from the Italian Navy. (Think I can't find anyone?).
  
  Well the pilots of the Explosive Motor Boats. Yes, I typed it correctly Explosive Motor Boats.
  
  Cheers AA.
  
  

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  Posted by FormerlyOldHermit (U3291242) on Sunday, 16th April 2006

  I also think that while not tactically brilliant, Admiral Betram Ramsay was a great Admiral who managed to not only organise the evactuation of France at Dunkirk, but also the re-invasion of D-Day. Also, another fairly good admiral was Admiral Tovey who sank the Bismark. Also, you have to think of the big US Admirals such as Nimitz, who superbly led the US fightback against the Japanese in the Pacific.
  
  An Admiral I must defintely didn't like was Admiral King of the USN. He was a fool who refused to appreciate the Royal Navy's advice on U-Boat warfare when the US entered the war, leading to the U-Boats enjoying a 'happy time' off the coast of the Eastern United States.

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• Message 8

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  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Sunday, 16th April 2006

  Another WW2 admiral that has to be mentioned is Admiral Sir Andrew Brown Cunningham (ABC) - RN Adm. who fought in the Med. throughout WW2 - pretty good commander by all accounts.Β 
  
  Cunningham became First Sea Lord in 1943, but the major naval action in the Med was over by then. He did win the only RN fleet action of the war, at Matapan, but he ran it like Jutland and than made a Jutland-like signalling error which let the Italians escape. He was also an old-fashioned battleship man who failed to use his carriers properly.
  
  Somerville, who commanded Force H at Gibralter was a better tactician. He was also the only RN Admiral who came to close to fighting the great "what-if" - British armoured carriers against Japanese carriers - in the Indian Ocean in April 42. The two forces missed each other by 200nm.

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• Message 9

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  Posted by wollemi (U2318584) on Sunday, 16th April 2006

  Also, you have to think of the big US Admirals such as Nimitz, who superbly led the US fightback against the Japanese in the Pacific.
  
  An Admiral I must defintely didn't like was Admiral King of the USN. He was a fool who refused to appreciate the Royal Navy's advice on U-Boat warfare when the US entered the war, leading to the U-Boats enjoying a 'happy time' off the coast of the Eastern United States.Β 
  
  King's reputation is founded on his war against Japan in the Pacific

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• Message 10

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  Posted by Erik Lindsay (U231970) on Monday, 17th April 2006

  Also, you have to think of the big US Admirals such as Nimitz, who superbly led the US fightback against the Japanese in the Pacific.
  
  An Admiral I must defintely didn't like was Admiral King of the USN. He was a fool who refused to appreciate the Royal Navy's advice on U-Boat warfare when the US entered the war, leading to the U-Boats enjoying a 'happy time' off the coast of the Eastern United States.Β 
  
  King's reputation is founded on his war against Japan in the Pacific Β 
  King was definitely an Anglophobe. He didn't trust the English (I have no idea why) and he was too stubborn to admit that they might have come up with something that was better than the ''American way''. He eventually was forced to admit that convoying was the only logical way to get merchant ships from 'a' to 'b', and when he finally put his mind to it, he came up with a terrific defensive scheme.
  
  He was a stubborn, egotistical jerk in a lot of ways, but as an organizer (in the manner of Marshall and Eisenhower) he was very good indeed.
  
  My top fighting admiral of WW2 would have to be Ray Spruance of the US. He won Midway and had enough sense to quit while he was ahead. Halsey was beloved by the press, but he was too precipitate -- too headstrong. He took his fleet into two typhoons and lost some good ships simply because he wouldn't listen to his meteorologists, and could have lost the entire Leyte invasion fleet along with the fighting men ashore had Kurita not lost his nerve at the last minute. There was no reason for Halsey to take Lee's battleships north with him to attack the Japanese carriers -- he had more than enough AA power in his cruisers. If Kurita had gotten in amongst the American invasion force at Leyte Gulf, it could very well have cost the US the war.
  
  So...Spruance was the best of the Americans, I think.
  
  Britain: I like Ramsay. He never got into a fight, but Britain could easily have been forced into an armistice with Hitler had Ramsay not been able to evacuate the BEF in 1940, and he had to fight Pound and a few other higher-up admirals to get the ships he needed. Then he was able to organize and handle the D-Day invasion fleet without letting it degenerate into chaos, which it could easily have done, considering the fact that it was delayed for 24 hours after putting out to sea.
  
  Then there's Harwood. Admittedly he was not the best tactician in the RN, but when Britain needed a victory badly, he gave them one. He's got to be given credit for that.
  
  Nimitz was not a fighting admiral, but he was Eisenhower's equivalent in the Pacific. Not only did he have to manipulate an enormous fighting force without letting it fly off every which way, he had to deal with the megalomaniacal MacArthur. After the war he was asked how he managed to handle Mac, and he said (paraphrased) ''the way you deal with any idiot. Humour him and pretend to listen, but ignore what he says.''
  
  Canada had a decent admiral too. He used his maritime expertise to maintain a steady stream of merchant shipping flowing between America and Britain. L.W. Murray was his name, and although he never fought a fleet engagement, he was instrumental in keeping open the Atlantic lifeline. It may not have been as glamorous as Jutland, but it was just as important, and a lot more decisive.

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by FormerlyOldHermit (U3291242) on Monday, 17th April 2006

  Another WW2 admiral that has to be mentioned is Admiral Sir Andrew Brown Cunningham (ABC) - RN Adm. who fought in the Med. throughout WW2 - pretty good commander by all accounts.Β 
  
  Cunningham became First Sea Lord in 1943, but the major naval action in the Med was over by then. He did win the only RN fleet action of the war, at Matapan, but he ran it like Jutland and than made a Jutland-like signalling error which let the Italians escape. He was also an old-fashioned battleship man who failed to use his carriers properly.
  
  Somerville, who commanded Force H at Gibralter was a better tactician. He was also the only RN Admiral who came to close to fighting the great "what-if" - British armoured carriers against Japanese carriers - in the Indian Ocean in April 42. The two forces missed each other by 200nm.Β 
  
  Failed to use his carriers properly??? If memory serves me correctly, weren't his carriers the ones which carried out the Raid on Taranto. If that wasn't using his carriers properly, I don't know what would constitute to him using them properly. For goodness sake, the Japanese used the Taranto Raid as a template for Pearl Harbour.
  
  Somerville, undoubtedly, was a great Admiral but lets remember that his main aim in the Indian Ocean was to evade the Japanese Fleet and maintain a Royal Navy presence in the area. If Somerville had engaged the Japanese, he would have been defeated through weight of numbers and through technology as the Japanese planes were far more advanced than their British counterparts while the Japanese cruisers and other surface vessels could have closed and engaged the Royal Navy force and eliminated them.

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  Posted by FormerlyOldHermit (U3291242) on Monday, 17th April 2006

  Also, I can't remember his name and he's not technically an Admiral (a Commodore). The British Commander who used his cruiser squadron to sink the Graf Spee. He was actually an extremely good tactician and quite cunning to, fooling the Graf Spee's Captain into thinking that the British had a much larger force than 3 cruisers, one badly damaged waiting for him out to sea.

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  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Monday, 17th April 2006

  That'll have been Sir Henry Harwood Old Hermit. If memory is correct he was appointed a Rear Admiral very shortly after the Battle of the River Plate. Went on to serve in the Med and ended the war as commanding HMS Prosperine (the Orkenys and Shetland command naval base).
  
  Cheers AA.

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  Posted by Beaver2007 (U3855732) on Friday, 5th May 2006

  Don't you mean "Coningham?"

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• Message 15

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  Posted by Beaver2007 (U3855732) on Friday, 5th May 2006

  Another one-
  What about Max Horton was'nt he a naval leader in WWII?
  Good book for you all[from USA perspective]is
  "The Two Ocean War" by Adm S.E.Morison.
  With best wishes from an American.

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• Message 16

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  Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Friday, 5th May 2006

  Putting in a word for Arleigh "31-Knot" Burke, who pushed his destroyer squadrons to the hilt and showed the "tin can" to be a first-rate surface combatant. He fought in several firefights with the Japanese off Bougainville in 1943-44, sinking a cruiser, nine destroyers and others.
  
  

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  Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Friday, 5th May 2006

  Among the top Union admirals was David Farragut ("Damn the Torpedoes" at Mobile Bay) and David Porter, of Vicksburg fame:
  
  
  
  There were no Confederate fleet battles; most CSN action was by commerce raiders like the British-built-and-manned "Alabama" and "Florida."
  
  
  
  

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• Message 18

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  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Friday, 5th May 2006

  Old Hermit
  
  ABC was abattleship man.
  
  Taranto took place on his watch, but the plan was worked out under Pound, his predecessor. He wouldn't put in a propor awards list - by the time it was revised, several of the recipients were dead.
  
  He took Formidable into Matapan with half an Air Group, and used her narrowly by the book. And the Italians got away, just like the Germans at Jutland.
  
  He appointed gunnery Admirals (notably Vian) to command the carriers in the British Pacific Fleet, with bad results.
  
  He awarded the Navy's share of peerages to the Admirals who sank battleships (apart from himself; Tovey, Bismark; and Fraser, Scharhorst). This may be why Horton (Western Approaches and the reason my parents didn't starve) refused further employment post-war.

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• Message 19

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  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Friday, 5th May 2006

  Old Hermit
  
  Sorry to do this a a separate post, but my system can't handle long ones.
  
  Agree that from mid-42, when his capital units were taken back to the Med, Somerville was on the defensive.
  
  But, ther was a window of opportunity in April 42 when he had the carriers Indomitable, Formidable and the modern battleship Valiant where he did go looking for the Japanese carrier group then in the Indian Ocean.
  
  He was trading off the Japanese advantage in numbers and range of aircraft against the better survivability of British carriers and the ability of British strike aircraft to attack at night (no-one else did this). His correspondence shows that his major concrn was that his carriers' brand-new air groups weren't fully trained in this pre-war skill.
  
  Anyway, it didn't happen, and his task force was dispersed.

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• Message 20

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  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Friday, 5th May 2006

  Don't you mean "Coningham?"Β 
  
  No, Coningham was the RAF man: Air Vice Marshal (later Air Marshal Sir) Arthur Coningham.
  
  His contempories were Admiral A B Cunnigham and General Alan Cunnigham (ABC's little brother)

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