Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ

Wars and ConflictsΜύ permalink

The Somme

• Message 1.Μύ

  Posted by WarFanatic (U2676733) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  Hi, with it being the 90th Anniversary of the Battle of Somme on July 1st, what would, in your opinion, be a fitting tribute to our heroes who died in arguably one of the biggest slaughters in the British Army's history? For me I am investigating a local Pals regiment as a large number of them were killed during the first few days of the Somme. I just thought i'd give you an opportunity to share some ideas.
  
  Regards,
  Dave H.

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message1

• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  I think we should do the same as Charles (?) did to Cromwell - dig up Haigs remains and put them somewhere we could throw rotten fruit and veg at them !!
  The first people to do it should be any descendants of the 20000+ who died in the first day
  
  oops is that OTT ??

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message2

• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  i thought that many died in the first 40 minutes or so?

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message3

• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  i thought that many died in the first 40 minutes or so?Μύ
  
  is that correct ?? - will look that up - they still get the front ranks tho

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message4

• Message 5

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Slimdaddy101 (U2553470) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  Hi WarFanatic,
  I've always been fascinated by the Somme. It was the Somme that go tme interested in WW1 and history in general.
  Last year I undertook my first pilgrimage. It was quite an experience and with the summer looming I'm planning a new pilgrimage to the Somme on my bike. I intend to spend a week or so cycling around some of the old battlefields in Belgium and France. Naturally in 1st July I intend to be on the Somme.
  SlimD

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message5

• Message 6

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Mark (U1347077) on Wednesday, 29th March 2006

  On 1 July 1916 there were 59,000 British casualties of whom 20,000 were killed.
  
  On and off, the battle continued until November. Although we needed to relief the pressure on the French at Verdun and the Russians, it seems an incompetent means of doing so.
  
  However, the British daily loss rate was higher in 1918.

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message6

• Message 7

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by WarFanatic (U2676733) on Wednesday, 29th March 2006

  Dear Slimdaddy, That sounds a really great idea. Ive always wanted to actually visit the battlefields of the Somme, but ive never actually had the money to do it. I was thinking of getting a guided tour but thats like several hundred pounds. Cycling it seems a great idea, do you plan to stay in hostels? How do you plan to navigate?
  The Battle of the Somme was indeed one of the most interesting battles of the great war. I think it was the scale of the losses in such a short amount of time that made it stand out over Ypres etc.
  
  Regards,
  Dave.

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message7

• Message 8

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by JIMBOB52 (U3286524) on Wednesday, 29th March 2006

  I wouldn;t want to diminish for a second the horrors and sacrafice of the Somme but i do find the abuse of Haig unfair. He was a soldier fighting for a democracy as part of a coalition, doing his best under the circumstances. Who would have done better given the same resources and remit? With 90 years of hindsight has anyone actually come up with a workable tactical plan for the battle?
  Popular post-war and admired for his work to allivate the suffering of ex-soldiers, the Poppy appeal and the British Legion both stemming from him. This does not strike me as the work of an unfeeling monster.
  I'm not defending the man from all charges, he got many things wrong but he is not the cartoon butcher of popular myth.
  

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message8

• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 29th March 2006

  i wonder how many times Haig actually visited the front ?? he had the best army the brits had ever put into combat - and he did nothing

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message9

• Message 10

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 29th March 2006

  Haig NEVER checked out the front and found the truth -

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message10

• Message 11

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Slimdaddy101 (U2553470) on Wednesday, 29th March 2006

  Hi WarFanatic,
  When I was a student I was hitching from the South of France into Amsterdam. En route I came across Ypers and spend an afternoon there. This was in the days before the internet and for me to see such a place was quite something. I thought about that afternnon a lot. Ypres was the first battlefield I ever visited. I've since seen a few more but always remember the feeling I had at Ypres.
  So the Somme seems like a natural progression. I've never really been one for guided tours of anything. I've always prefered making my own route. I intend to procure some suitable books a decent map and sort of head of into the hinterland of WW1. I bought a bivvy bag last year and it is great for camping out in (if even to keep the mozzers of) and I intend to have a few nights under the stars in the Somme valley and soak up the place. With the bike you can travel quite a distance in a day and I will just see where it leads me.
  

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message11

• Message 12

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Thursday, 30th March 2006

  
  The Battle of the Somme was indeed one of the most interesting battles of the great war. I think it was the scale of the losses in such a short amount of time that made it stand out over Ypres etc.
  Μύ
  
  not sure if interesting is the correct word - those poor s--ds that morning were told to WALK - no running - some were kicking footballs - the hun was meant to have been shelled into oblivion but the spot chosen was a stable section so the germans had had time to build shelters and escape the worst of the bombardment - keep imagining what it was like - awful
  
  what made it particlularly poignant/sad was that they were all volunteers - the last one i believe before conscription had to be introduced

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message12

• Message 13

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by darkm1966 (U1788418) on Thursday, 30th March 2006

  Re; Message 8,9,10:
  
  I recall reading somewhere that part of the reason for the "disaster" (if that's the right word) on 1st July was that the officers closer to the front line (Rawlinson?) didn't want to be seen to fail and kept on advising Haig that things were going pretty well.
  
  Not necessarily a defence of Haig (it could be argued he should have been closer to the front to see for himself), but do I recall correctly?

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message13

• Message 14

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Buckskinz (U3036516) on Thursday, 30th March 2006

  Boycott Haig & Haig whisky.
  
  Matt.

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message14

• Message 15

  , in reply to message 13.

  Posted by mrs-nostalgie (U3136537) on Friday, 31st March 2006

  From where Rawlinson was situated, gains were being made. In the section around Fricourt & Eastwards Tommies made it to the German front line & established positions, nonwithstanding Capt. Neville's football ruse.(I've always seen this as the way the Cpt. motivated his boys, for such they were, to go over the top in better heart than they might otherwise have done.)
  The huge losses, 20,000 in the first day, largely in the 1st hour,were proportionally greater in the Northern Sector between Serre & Thiepval; & even in the latter sector, Irish battalions reached the infamous Schwaben redoubt, but back up wasn't forthcoming & they were forced to withdraw with heavy losses. Communications were appalling, in fact Haig didn't find out what had really happened for more than 48 hours, I believe.
  1918's loss rate was higher but 1st July remains, in terms of casualties, the worst day for the British Army.
  Vilification of Haig is a rather black & white (no pun int.) view:- read Richard Holmes, & also note that no first-hand accounts blame him. There were certainly more than a few donkeys leading the lions, but Haig knew ther was a job to be done & is on record as regretting that, because the Germans had dug in, it would be a war of attrition with many casualties. Current analysis agrees, what else could have been done? Personally tho', I can't forgive him for, a) calling the Pals cowards when he did hear about the 1st day, saying something like they can't have got out of their trenches, & b) Never going to see. Which general was it who did go, & said 'Good God, did we ask men to fight in this?'
  Generals like I. Maxsie who fought alongside their men, were rare. I suppose the others felt their responsibility was to stay safe & direct things.
  Recommend warfan. does as we did before evolving into taking school groups; pack a tent, Martin Middlebrooke's '1st Day..' & the 4 relevant Series Bleu maps from ign.fr, cross la Manche as cheaply as you can, (Speedferries is good,) take the Tommies' route to Albert via St Pol, use one of the 1/2 doz local campsites & be at Thiepval onSaturday morning. (& a lot of bikers will be at the Lochnagar Crater at 7.ooam that day first. That's how to commemorate, that & tell/take others.
  Re; Message 8,9,10:
  
  I recall reading somewhere that part of the reason for the "disaster" (if that's the right word) on 1st July was that the officers closer to the front line (Rawlinson?) didn't want to be seen to fail and kept on advising Haig that things were going pretty well.
  
  Not necessarily a defence of Haig (it could be argued he should have been closer to the front to see for himself), but do I recall correctly?Μύ

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message15

• Message 16

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 31st March 2006

  Hi, with it being the 90th Anniversary of the Battle of Somme on July 1st, what would, in your opinion, be a fitting tribute to our heroes who died in arguably one of the biggest slaughters in the British Army's history? For me I am investigating a local Pals regiment as a large number of them were killed during the first few days of the Somme. I just thought i'd give you an opportunity to share some ideas.
  
  Regards,
  Dave H.Μύ
  
  Remember their sacrifice with dignity, nothing more.

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message16

• Message 17

  , in reply to message 15.

  Posted by TerribleTomas (U1765869) on Friday, 31st March 2006

  Mud Blood and Poppycock by Gordon Corrigan is well worth reading. The British Army learnt from its mistakes during the First World War and never widespread mutiny like the French.
  
  I've been to Ypres and Verdun and intend to take in the Somme. Holts are really good and although you're talking several hundred pounds they're very good value for money!
  
  If you are camping and wandering about on your own Do resist the tempatation to bring back a less than inert shell as a souvenir They still kill people today. We went for a walk in the woods near Verdun with an expert and we came across a shell in no time.
  
  Tom
  

  Link to this forum: The Somme

  Report message17

Back to top