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Sold out

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Preacher (U2899850) on Monday, 27th March 2006

  I came across an official diplomatic biography of a former Army Officer (Royal Horse Guards Blue) who started as a Cornet in 1844, was eventually promoted Captain in 1854 and was then "Sold out" in 1857. He joined the diplomatic service, still referred to as "Captain", in 1859.
  
  Can any of you military historians tell me exactly what "sold out" means in this context, please? Is it simply the other side of "buy out" - i.e. the officer buys himself out, while the army sells him out?
  
  Why would he have had to be sold out after 12 and a half years service? Could he not simply have resigned his commission? Or was that not an option in 1857?

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Monday, 27th March 2006

  In 1857 you could still purchase a commission
  
  and when u left the army you could sell your commission - some officers used it like a pension
  
  so i would imagine thats what it means
  
  there is an interesting thread lower down on this board about the Prchase of commissions

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by MB (U177470) on Monday, 27th March 2006

  Quite a good article which covers the subject at the URL below
  
  
  
  
  MB

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Monday, 27th March 2006

  stalteriisok has got it pretty much spot on.
  
  He'd have sold his Captains commission to the highest bidder, a Royal Horse Guards captains commission in 1858 was going for a regulation Β£3,500, a Cornets was Β£1,200.
  
  He wouldn't have been allowed officially to still call himself a Captain in 1859, but may have insisted on being called it. Remember the "Major" in Fawlty Towers? That sort of thing.
  
  Cheers AA.

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Monday, 27th March 2006

  The "regulation" was the highest amount a commission could be sold for. (Should have explained this term).
  
  Cheers AA.

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Preacher (U2899850) on Monday, 27th March 2006

  stalteriisok has got it pretty much spot on.
  
  He'd have sold his Captains commission to the highest bidder, a Royal Horse Guards captains commission in 1858 was going for a regulation Β£3,500, a Cornets was Β£1,200.
  
  He wouldn't have been allowed officially to still call himself a Captain in 1859, but may have insisted on being called it. Remember the "Major" in Fawlty Towers? That sort of thing.
  
  Cheers AA.Β 
  
  Thanks for that, and thanks for the other info. in earlier posts, which I shall certainly follow up. The Β£3500 does seem rather a lot, since a Rear Admiral (= Major General, I think) on full pay received Β£1095 p.a. In today's terms, I believe a major general earns something over Β£90,000. Pro rata, then, the Captain's sale of his commission would have rased close to Β£300,000 in today's terms. This explains, perhaps, why the particualr Captain led a fairly lavish life.
  
  Are you sure about not being called by Rank after leaving the Army? Maybe it's a courtesy, but this particular Captain received correspondence inter alia from the Foreign Secretary (Lord Russell) addressed to "Captain X", well into the 1860s.
  
  My own father used to receive official correspondence up to the time of his death in 1976 addressed to "Colonel Preacher-Dad", though he had left the service more than 20 years previously.
  
  Does anybody know if this is merely a courtesy, or whether Rank, once granted, is a lifetime thing?

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by colonelblimp (U1705702) on Monday, 27th March 2006

  
  My own father used to receive official correspondence up to the time of his death in 1976 addressed to "Colonel Preacher-Dad", though he had left the service more than 20 years previously.
  
  Does anybody know if this is merely a courtesy, or whether Rank, once granted, is a lifetime thing?Β 
  
  It would be a courtesy title. A Field Marshal, once appointed, never officially retires but everyone below that rank does. Former officers who have taken civilian jobs in the MOD continue to use their rank in the workplace but technically the proper usage would be "Major [or whatever] (Retired)".

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Monday, 27th March 2006

  colonelblimp,
  
  well explained, it's a courtesy title that has fallen more and more out of use in more modern times. In the 19thC it was a custom more honoured more in the usage than the breach. In the 20thC (and 21stC) it is now seldom used in civillian life. (An octogenerian I know who was a REME Captain during WW2 would probably hit me if I called him "Captain").
  
  Cheers AA.

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by Preacher (U2899850) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  colonelblimp,
  
  well explained, it's a courtesy title that has fallen more and more out of use in more modern times. In the 19thC it was a custom more honoured more in the usage than the breach. In the 20thC (and 21stC) it is now seldom used in civillian life. (An octogenerian I know who was a REME Captain during WW2 would probably hit me if I called him "Captain").
  
  Cheers AA.Β 
  
  My mother, to her vast amusement, used to receive an annual invitation to Ladies' Night in the Officers' Mess. The envelope, from the current Colonel's wife, used to be addressed to "Mrs. Colonel Preacher-Dad". Incidentally, my mother was not born to the status of an officer's lady, but in an Edinburgh tenement, so her elevation was all the more amusing to her.

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  Someone once told me that Majors and above are entitled to use their rank as a title after leaving the forces. Don't know if it's true though.

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  If I remember correctly, it is an officer thing, and I'm guessing you're correct on the "Majors and above" aspect. Have come across many "Major Blahblahblah (Rtd)" types, but never a Corporal Bloggs (Rtd)!!! It's all about status and a touch of snobbery IMO.
  
  Cheers
  SSgt DL (Rtd)
  
  (Sorry couldn't resist).

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by Preacher (U2899850) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  I was told that at one time it was usual for an officer to be promoted one step the day before he retired. This jacked up the pension, and of course - for instance - "Lt.-Col." carries (carried) more cachet than "Major".

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  Sounds like a proper pension fiddle there!!!
  
  I shall refrain from voicing my opinions on officers!

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• Message 14

  , in reply to message 13.

  Posted by Turnwrest (U2188092) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  Certainly the way it worked in the RN - up to Lt became plain "Mr" on retirement, Lt/Cdr up kept the rank plus "Retd". Flag Ossifers never retire, they simply go on half-pay and theoretically can be recalled whenever they are needed. In WWII, many FOICs, SNOs etc. in ports home & abroad were retired FOs, as were many of the Convoy Commodores (Commodore being an "appointment" rather than a "rank" in RN practice). "Monkey" Stephenson was one of the more vital of the retreads.

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• Message 15

  , in reply to message 14.

  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 29th March 2006

  It is, in fact, Captains (Flight Lieutenants, Lieutenants RN) and above who can use their rank after retirement. The nice letter from the relevant Personnel Branch informs the recipient of the entitlement.
  
  The historic rationale is that subalterns were regarded as probationary - Captain was the first "substantive" rank. I don't think that is the formal position these days.
  
  Agree the practise is less common these days, and below general officer rank is mostly used by people who still have some connection, as an author or a pundit. Colonel Hughes-Wilson springs to mind, but I don't want to set the Shot At Dawn mob off.
  
  People with volunteer or wartime commissions are also, assuming the correct rank, entitled to use the rank after retirement. I find it interesting that many people with such commissions did so after WWI (i.e. Captain W E Johns, author of the "Biggles" books), but very few did so after WWII. One of my schoolmasters insisted on his (wartime) title of Major, and it came as some surprise to discover later on that quite a few of his colleagues were also entitled to use the same title, and one had outranked him, as a Lt Col.
  
  

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• Message 16

  , in reply to message 15.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 29th March 2006

  Re: Message 3.
  
  C3,
  
  have a look...if you want... to the thread about the French soldiers rescued from Dunkirk.
  
  I found something for you.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 17

  , in reply to message 16.

  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 29th March 2006

  Paul
  
  Thanks. I've posted back on that thread.
  
  C3

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