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Posted by craigd1973 (U2853338) on Sunday, 26th March 2006
Dunkirk must be the most famous escape of an army in history and it made me wonder whether there have been any other occasions in history when an army has somehow managed to escape almost certain destruction by some means or another.
At first I thought of Napoleons crossing of the Berezina river during the retreat from Russia but I am not sure that would count as the army was eventually destroyed by freezing, starvation etc during the rest of the retreat.
I would be interested to learn of any other escapes and look forward to your contributions.
How about the escape of the German Army from the Pas de Calais in July/August 1944, due to the failure to seal off the Scheldt Estuary? Prolonged the war by nearly a year.
Well, the events of the Battle of Orantes (just outside Antioch) during the First Crusade take some beating.
Outnumbered and near starvation the Christian army attacked Kerboghas forces and with the help of the fortunate discovery of the Holy Lance in the Church of Saint Peter and the apparent reinforcements of an army who were believed to be saints and / or those who had already died on the crusade won, dispersing Kerboghas forces.
(They were also helped by internal divisions within the Muslim forces and the desertion prior to battle of some of Kerboghas troops, but that's much less prosaic).
Cheers AA.
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by Our Man in Mexico (U1661159) on Monday, 27th March 2006
How about George Washington and the American escaping across the Delaware River in 1776?
In 1776 General Howe and the British had smashed the Americans at the Battle of Brooklyn Heights, driven them off Long Island, as well as driving them off Manhattan Island and taking Fort Washington and then going on to capture New York. The Americans retreated through the Colony of New Jersey to the shore of the Delaware River on December 7th 1776, all the while being pursued by the British.
On the night of December 25th 1776, George Washington and 6,000 Americans escaped across the Delaware River, with the crossing being complete by 3am. General Howe had allowed the Americans to escape through his sluggish and lethargic movements and by failing to follow up his New York campaign.
I apologise if any of the information is inaccurate as it has been a while since I read about the American War of Independence.
Cheers
Craig
I wanna whopper jr
How about the evacuation of Hungnam in eastern North Korea in December of 1950? It may not have saved a nation from conquest, but it involved the withdrawal of more than 100,000 UN military personnel from an impossible situation. It has been described as an "amphibious invasion in reverse" and, if memory serves, involved nearly as many craft as the D-Day invasion. In less than 2 weeks, nearly 200,000 people (including civilian refugees), 17,000 vehicles and nearly 400,00 tons of equipment and materiel were salvaged -- even vehicles that didnÕt run anymore but were reparable were picked up.
Chinese a/c didnÕt assault the debarking troops and people the way the NaziÕs did in 1940, but they represented a huge threat just the same, and the UN had battleships, heavy cruisers, and naval a/c holding them back. An enormous Chinese army was waiting in the wings to take care of any personnel that failed to leave.
It was a major undertaking. Nothing since the Okinawa invasion in 1945 could match it.
, in reply to message 6.
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Wednesday, 29th March 2006
erik
is taht the one where the glosters held up fifty odd thousand chinese and n.k's with aprroximatly 400 men?
Honestly I was not even aware of that "inverted amphibian assault" in Korea, interesting enough but then this is no narrow escape - with the amount of equipement one could make the round of the world with that kind of army, rather than escape a situation. On the other hand the Chinese, even the communists, proved to be faithfull to Sun Tzu's teachings that said "if the enemy flees, just let him flee: try to show him only one way out, the one that is 180 degress back! If you show your enemy no alternative then it will sit and fight for its life and someone who fights for survival not at all an easy opponent.
please dont take this the wrong way but dunkirk was a dismal failure.many many men were left behind.those that were wounded were deamed to stay behind and hold up the german forces advancing on dunkirk.my great uncle was wounded around dunkirk and was one of those who didnt make it out so when you think of dunkirk think of the many familes who were never to see their loved ones again.those who died so those who could live.
Xenophon's 10,000.
On the Dunkirk theme, and something which is sure to annoy DrkKtn and others....did you know that if someone leaves rapidly or unexpectedly, the French say that they "left like the British"??
Absolutely true. I left work early on Monday afternoon, and one of my colleagues let slip with the expression on Wednesday morning when enquiring why I disappeared so quickly. "Nothing personal or malicious..." he explained, "Its a common expression in French".
Absolute shower.
splutter... pah!
They should be grateful we were willing to put any effort at all into defending their miserable country.
My theory on 1939/40: the Rules of History include "the French always lose", so the UK's actions in attempting to defend France led inevitably to defeat. As soon as France fell to the Germans & we found ourselves fighting against the established French regime, i.e. Vichy, we started to win again.
& they eat horses!
<>
Inaccurate, to say the least. Washington didn't escape across the Delaware; he attacked across it. It came at the end of a long campaign of retreating, beginning with his escape across the East River from Long Island to Manhattan.
All you had to do was google.
How about Mao Zedong's Long March of 1934-35? Facing annihilation, 100,000 started a retreat to the north. They fought their way over 5,000 miles, fought about 100 battles in one year, and arrived in the north with about 10,000 soldiers left.
Chiang Kai-Shek announced their destruction on at least 5 occasions.
The survivors of the Long March were the nucleus of the army that gave Mao his victory over Chiang. Quite a story of perseverence.
Regards
Brian
How about the Battle of Mons, where the British marched towards the German first army (the strongest of Germanys seven armys situated on the western front in 1914)believing that Lanzarec's (france)5th army was supporting their right flank, and not realising that Lanzarec had infact withdrawn the 5th army, meaning that the B.E.F. were walking into a huge trap which could have destroyed the B.E.F. completely. against overwhelming odds they actually scored some successes.(Insert Angel of Mon's fable here. before deciding to retreat to a position east of Paris. even then they held on to Mauberge until the 8th September 1914. despite the fact that the entente forces were being pushed further and further south. in fact the Battle on the Marne where the entente forces turned the tide, could also be regarded as a Great escape as far as Paris was concerned. for had the entente lost that, Paris would have fallen and Germany would have won the War a month after starting it.
I'd agree with Xenophon and the 10,000 marching and fighting their way out of Persia.
My favourite, though, is Hannibal. After his great victories, he spent some time around Capua. The Romans seized all the surrounding hills and decided to just pen him in seeing as they couldn’t beat him in battle. One night, the Romans see a large numbers of flaming torches charging up the hill towards one part of their line. They rush troops there from all around, only to discover a herd of cattle with burning torches tied to their horns. By the time they get reorganised, Hannibal had marched his entire army out in another direction.
Actually, I've never been sure whether to believe that story as I have a sneaking suspicion the Romans may have invented it as a sign of Hannibal's cunning just to cover up their own incompetence. Still, you never know.
The greatest escape in History was when the US entered WW2 and saved England.
Cheers, Matt.
What kept you ???
Message 19 - posted by stalteriisok, 1 Hour Ago
What kept you ???
................................
Were we supposed to be someplace?
I think one of the greatest military escapes in history was Jackson's Shenandoah campaign of '62. We don't think of it as an escape because of it's remarkable outcome--but in fact he was cornered by 3 Armies with total forces 4 times his own that had manuvered to surround and destroy Jackson. Where others saw entrapment, the brilliant Jackson saw opportunity, conducted some of the most brilliant military manuvers in all of history, and defeated his opponents.
Kurt
"The greatest escape in History was when the US entered WW2 and saved England.
Cheers, Matt."
Thanks for all your help during the period in which we were scuppering Hitler's plan to invade the UK.
Remember, if it wasn't for us you'd all be speaking Japanese...
Message 22 - posted by DrkKtn**, 5 Minutes Ago
Remember, if it wasn't for us you'd all be speaking Japanese...
Singapore
Pearl Harbour (n.b. spelling)
Pearl Harbor was not a surrender ya silly sausage. Besides, had it never happened you would be speaking Russian.
You forget that we've actually won a war against the Ruskies, whereas you've never even had one!
Actually we fought in Russia in the early 20th Century.
Cheers, Matt.
Didya? When - got a link?
Here ya go pussycat.
I stand corrected. You HAVE fought a war against the Ruskies, you just haven't won one.
It takes a big pussycat to admit when he is wrong. Good Lad.
Miaow, purrr. There had to be a first time, I suppose...
Am I correct in thinking that the Metal for the VC is from melted Russian cannon from the battle at Sebastopol?
Matt.
Pussycat, can you help me out with message 33? It may not be correct.
Matt.
Am I correct in thinking that the Metal for the VC is from melted Russian cannon from the battle at Sebastopol?
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Yes and no Buckskinz. It was Sevastapol, and acording to modern metallurgical sources the canons were Chinese.
In the rest of your post you are correct.
Cheers AA.
They are supposed to be made from captured Russian cannon, but I did hear a rumour once that that they were begining to run out of metal, so some old Chinese cannon at Woolwich get mixed in. But this may have been just a story.
BTW - it wasn't just the Americans who were involved in fighting in Russia in 1918-20 (see messeges 28, ect), us Brits were also involved (in fact some 16 nations were involved). I read 'The Victors Dilemma' years ago, and was facinated by the strange situation. There are more recent books out as well, but I recommend you check out something about this war - vast bribes, mad generals, murder, the Czar, faked disapperences (see Peter Hobkirk's books) and Sidney Reilly - you couldn't make it up!
That's why I asked. Have they done a cross check between some of the early medals and what has been given out more recently?
Matt.
The cannons captured from the Russians at Sevastapol had been made in China.
brian
Thank you Brian.
Matt.
Technically, the Lend Lease act was the first American inititive to save Britain back in 1940.
But, i think its agreed that the American decision to concentrate its forces in europe rather than Asia decided the course of the Second World War as far as the Western Powers were concerned.
I'd also like to point out that although I may not agree with certain American Administrations, i am not anti-American,and believe that the culture of Europe especially Britain has been greatly influenced and enriched by the U.S.of A.
BS
do you know the only American to be awarded the Victoria Cross??
ST
No, but don't tell me. Did he have dual nationality?
no - but it might give it away when i say that the british recipient opposite got the Congressional Medal of Honor- not that i am knowledgeable just surfing
st
What is going on with some threads, if you post all you get is ....Cued for moderation? I never seen this before.
American recipients of the Victoria Cross.
Bellenden Seymour Hutcheson - 1918; Queant Drocourt Support Line, France
William Henry Metcalf - 1918; Arras, France
George Harry Mullin - 1917; Passchendaele, Belgium
William Henry Harrison Seeley - 1864; Shimonoseki, Japan
Raphael Louis Zengel - 1918; Warvillers, France
The Unknown Soldier of World War I buried in Arlington National Cemetery was posthumously awarded the cross in 1921. This gesture was reciprocated by the award of the Medal of Honour to the British Unknown Warrior.
BS
what happened on the history hub is that the bbc mods said that on the footie boards they could only post every 5 minutes coz there was tooo much interactons (ie it wasnt a msg board it was used as a chat board )the liverpool lads chose us to be the ones to post on - to make their point = the mods then close us down to stop LUFC posting here
probably OK tomprrow tho
st
BS
good post - u lost me there
i thought the only US recipient was the Unknown warrior and it was reciprocated
good call
st
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