Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ

Wars and ConflictsΒ  permalink

Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Friday, 24th March 2006

  We had many discussions here on the boards, when people said once Sudetenland was given by "negociations" to Germany, that the defence of Czechoslovakia was gone.
  
  But wasn't it already gone the moment of the "Anschluss" of Austria. CZ now undefencable, while it was surrounded nearly completely by hostile country?
  
  And Hungary in the South was nearly an ally under Admiral Horthy, especially if it could gain some territorial areas as it later did as an ally of Germany from 1941 onwards?
  
  As for Poland in the North? In January 1934 Poland concluded a non-aggression pact with Germany, but also a non-aggression pact with the Sovjet-Union.
  
  It didn't join the French-sponsored Little Entente of Czechoslovakia, Romania and Yugoslavia.
  
  After the detoriation of the situation by Nazi Germany, although it was fearing as much from Germany as from the Sovjet-Union, it was more against the SU for fear that once they had entered for help against Hitler during his several coups, the Sovjet Army would never leave again and the Bolshefication (I don't know the right word and want not to look too much to Google for fear to loose my text) would become dominant.
  
  With that anxious neutral Poland in the North, the Sovjets not able to help because they had to go over Polish territory and in the South a Nazi friendly regime in Hungary, so was Czechoslovakia doomed in my opinion?
  
  I especially await comments from my Swedish friend Hasse, that great tactician, strategist.
  
  Also from my friend Jozef, while it is part of his country's history.
  
  Looking forward to comments of other erudite contributors and thanks in advance to any reply.

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message1

• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Saturday, 25th March 2006

  Hi Paul,
  
  Czechoslovakia I don't think was doomed when the Anschluss happened - it was only doomed once the Sudeten defences had been given away by the Munich agreement.
  
  The Czech government as far as I'm aware never said to the Sudeten-Germans "look you want to live in Germany so you have 24hours to pack up and leave" - maybe a simple solution to a complex problem but it might have made people realise that the Czechs weren't going to be a walk-over.
  
  Maybe such a provocation might have meant Hitler would have launched a war and this might have sparked the West to defend Czechoslovakia - even if it had not at least Czechoslovakia could have had a chance to fight on an almost 50:50 odds - once their defences were gone so was any chance of defending the homeland.
  
  Eduard Benes (pardon any misspelling) said it was the hardest decision of his life accepting the Munich aggrement and subsequent German invasion of Bohemia-Moravia. In the former he had no choice and in the latter his country had no chance.
  
  It's interesting what you say about the other Eastern nations and I defer to Jozef about Poland's intentions lest I offend with a mis-directed point - but I always thought that a lot of the E. European countries esp. Hungary were always somewhat jealous of Czechoslovakia and of course they had a Slovak minority that would have always looked for the independence.
  
  

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message2

• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Saturday, 25th March 2006

  Paul, you write:
  
  "As for Poland in the North? In January 1934 Poland concluded a non-aggression pact with Germany, but also a non-aggression pact with the Sovjet-Union.
  
  It didn't join the French-sponsored Little Entente of Czechoslovakia, Romania and Yugoslavia."
  
  The problems facing new states after WWI were too immensely complex to describe in a single post. Besides, it's Saturday and should really be doing other things, but I've copy and pasted some interesting information about the Teschen dispute which shows that the Czechs really had themselves to blame for their bad relations with the Poles:
  
  "History. The Duchy of Teschen, located on both sides of the Olza river, belonged to Poland until 1291, when it became a fief of the Bohemian Crown. In 1653, on the death of its last ruler from the old Polish House of Piast, it devolved to the Austrian Habsburgs.
  
  There was a dispute between Poles and Czechs over Teschen Silesia at the Slavic Congress in Prague, in June 1848. In that year, a Teschen attorney, Andrzej Cinciala (1825-1898) began to publish the first Polish language paper in Teschen. His Vienna correspondent was another patriotic Teschen Pole, Pawel Stalmach.(1824-1891). Cinciala had been the moving spirit in founding a Polish People's Library in the town of Teschen a few years earlier and was very active in developing Polish national consciousness in the region.
  
  The Austrian census of 1910 showed a Polish-speaking majority in most of the duchy except for its furthest western part. The whole area is divided approximately in half by the Olza river, which runs through the town of Teschen. The Poles called the part west of the Olza "Zaolzie," or the land beyond the Olza.
  
  On November 5, 1918, an agreement was signed by local Polish and Czech Councils, dividing the Duchy of Teschen along ethnic lines, i.e. Polish and Czech. William J. Rose (1885-1968) a Canadian Quaker, who had been interned in Teschen by Austrian authorities in 1914, participated in drawing up this agreement, and then went to London to report on it. Rose later became a historian of Poland.
  
  In December 1918, Jozef Pilsudski, Head of the Polish state, sent a small delegation to Prague with a proposal to negotiate an amicable settlement on Zaolzie. Masaryk met briefly with the delegates, agreed that negotiations for an amicable settlement were desirable, and told them to discuss the matter with members of the Czechoslovak government. However, the latter did not want to negotiatiate so the delegates returned to Warsaw empty-handed.
  
  Here we should note that Masaryk and most Czechs believed that all of western Teschen, including the preponderantly Polish Zaolzie, should belong to Czechoslovakia for three reasons: (a) it was part of the historic lands of the Bohemian Crown, and Benes had obtained French recognition that all these lands should go to Czechoslovakia (although the French did not realize at the time that this included Teschen); (b) because good coking coal and a steel mill were deemed vital to the Czechoslovak economy, while the Poles were expected to get the same with eastern Upper Silesia in a peace conference award from Germany; (c) they pointed to the fact that the only railway line connecting Bohemia-Moravia with Slovakia went through Zaolzie.
  
  The Polish government emphasized the predominantly Polish character of the region, but also believed that Poland needed the coal and steel. Furthemore, it argued that a branch railway line could be built elsewhere to connect Bohemia-Moravia with Slovakia.
  
  In late December 1918, the Polish government proclaimed elections to the Constituent Assembly and the designated electoral districts included Zaolzie. The Czechoslovak government feared the elections would demonstrate the preponderantly Polish character of the region, and so decided to seize it. Czech troops were sent into Zaolzie in January 1919. The local Polish troops were too weak to offer effective resistance and could not be reinforced because Polish troops were then fighting the Ukrainians for the city of Lwow (Ukr. L'viv) in East Galicia. The Czechs occupied the disputed territory, but the allied powers forced them to leave.
  
  In the period January 1919-end July 1920, there were several Polish and Czech attempts to resolve the problem peacefully, either by plebiscite or by arbitration, but no agreement was reached. Finally, as the Red Army was advancing on Warsaw in early July 1920, the Polish delegation went to Spa, Belgium, to ask the allied leaders for aid against the Soviets. The Poles agreed to submit the Teschen dispute to the Conference of Ambassadors in Paris. They did not know that Benes had secretly obtained French and British agreement to his proposal that the Ambassadors' Conference would simply award the disputed area to Czechoslovakia in return for his promise to allow the transit of French military supplies to Poland. However, Benes did not fulfill this promise and Czechoslovak railwaymen continued to block the supplies.
  
  The decision of the Conference of Ambassadors, July 28, 1920, to award Western Teschen (Zaolzie) to Czechoslovakia without a plebiscite or arbitration, was a shock to the Poles and remained an unhealed wound. The Czechoslovak government always refused to negotiate the issue. It also refused to consider an alliance with Poland in the 1920's, when the Poles were interested in it. Masaryk and Benes believed that Poland would have to cede some territory to Germany and the USSR, so they did not want an alliance with her which would antagonize Berlin and Moscow. Finally, the Czechs implemented a policy of Czech assimilation to the Poles of Zaolzie, that is, they were pressured to declare themselves Czechs and send their children to Czech schools if they wanted to keep their jobs and avoid being transferred to other parts of the country.
  
  Epilog.
  Zaolzie as well as the western part of the town of Teschen were annexed by Poland in the wake of the Munich Conference. Hitler took it over with the rest of Poland in September 1939, and Stalin awarded it to the Czechs in 1945. There is only a small but lively Polish minority in Zaolzie today."
  
  For the rest of this IMO interesting lecture click onto:
  
  
  
  Cheers, Jozef
  
  PS: I think you're wrong to assume that Hungary was such a determined ally of Hitler's Germany. Again you should look more closely at little Czechoslovakias little sins.
  

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message3

• Message 4

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Sunday, 26th March 2006

  Paul
  
  I am afraid this has to be a brief response, i have been so busy that I have had very little time for the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ pages.
  
  I do not think CZ was doomed. Germany in 1938 just did not have enough divisions to conquer CZ and watch the Polish and Franch border at the same time. I am quoting from memory but 55 divs of which only 2 with 1 forming were panzer and they were equipped with panzer 1s and 2s. And the Luftwaffe was still using biplanes. 10 of those divisons were Austrian and many of the German divisions were poorly equipped and trained. CZ had 35 divsions with equal or better tanks, a large airforce and stron defences. I know the Geramns could have out flanked them but they still could have held out for some time. there also was not even the strt of the West wall in 1938 and no Soviet Nazi pact. I believe that evidence from Russia has sjown that Stalin was committed to more 100,000 troops into CZ. I know they had no common border but I understand that a crossing had been agreed provided the soviet troops did not hang around.
  
  What doomed CZ was that Chamberlain did not want to fight for 'a far away people of which we knowe litte'.
  
  regards
  
  Tim
  
  
  pity James Walsh is not around.
  
  
  
  
  

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message4

• Message 5

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 26th March 2006

  Re: Message 3.
  
  Jozef,
  
  thank you very much for the interesting article, making me aware of how complex the whole situation was.
  
  Yes, cultures, languages, religions in , as the Greek Nikolaos call them, "borderlands" are very important to the people involved. The nowadays Belgium was always a borderland too and I recognize the situations.
  
  If you recall it we had some heated discussions about it on these boards, remember James Welsh and yes you too. I collected three books from the local library about the history of Poland and one about Czechoslovakia to understand the situation. I remember something vague about Hungary too and claims in the present Serbia (and in Slovakia?). But with the link you provided you can find it. I read it all.
  
  Indeed Anna Cienciala from the University of Kansas seems to be an authority on all this:
  
  
  
  Thanks again.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message5

• Message 6

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 26th March 2006

  Re: Message 4.
  
  Tim,
  
  thank you very much for your interesting reply. I have to check it all before answering.
  
  But yes you can be right. Even if Hitler invaded from Ober-Schlesien in the North and Pressburg in the South (I only say something, have to check it all) he wouldn't be able to separate Slovakia from Czechia? What would have the Slovaks done in that case? Wouldn't the Poles have not stayed neutral?
  
  But yes as you said you had Chamberlain and all those behind him and you had Daladier with a Bonnet, who nearly collapsed if he heard of Germans. And of course the very reluctant generals from the three weapons, with Gamelin the worst, when Daladier wanted to support the Czechs. Bonnet was so pleased to hear that the British wanted not to assist in fighting together with the French to halt Hitler in the event of an assault on Czecho-Slovakia.
  
  The British had information by the German Beck (not the Polish Beck), who planned an attack on Hitler with the army, what the strength and all the locations of the German army was. But they deliberately? didn't mention it to the French. I read it in "Canaris, Patriot im Zwielicht" (Canaris, patriot in twilight) from Heinz Höhne. I read it now again in another book. Will check that too.
  
  And in fact Gamelin was right, the French weren't prepared for a modern war, as the Germans, who made a cooperating strategy of whole armoured tankdivisions together with the aviation and supported by the infantery. The strategy of the French was to scatter the tanks, although they were as good not to say better than the German ones, allover the different fighting divisions and as support for them. The same with the planes. But it was all the fault of themselves, the French higher command, which under the lead of PΓ©tain, wouldn't listen to a General Estienne and a Colonel de Gaulle.
  
  Tim, that are my first thoughts and I have to think it over and to back it with some reading.
  
  Warm regards and happy to see you once back,
  
  Paul.

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message6

• Message 7

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 26th March 2006

  PS: Message 5.
  
  Jozef,
  
  and yes, I forgot: Krakow, here we come...In August...For five days.
  
  Can we make a trip to the Tatra or is it called otherwise on the Polish part?
  
  I read something on salt-mines too? Have to say in a hurry amid my research for these boards (smile).
  
  If you have some hints? Thanks in advance.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.
  
  

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message7

• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.

• Message 9

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Monday, 27th March 2006

  Paul,
  
  I sincerely hope you enjoy your visit to southern Poland. There's plenty to see, including the Tatra Mountains, the Wieliczka salt mine, and many other beautiful spots. Be sure to visit Kazimierz, the Jewish quarter in Krakow, and definitely the elegant restaurants and cafeterias around Krakow's main square to get a feel of the Secession period and Franz Joseph's Empire. This is a link you might find interesting for lot's of other places I haven't mentioned:
  
  
  
  Cheers, Jozef

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message9

• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Monday, 27th March 2006

  Re: Message 9.
  
  Jozef,
  
  thank you very much for the information.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message10

• Message 11

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  Jozef
  
  I entirely agree. I really enjoyed my time in Poland, a signifiacnt improvement on being in Poznan in 1975.
  
  Tim
  Paul,
  
  I sincerely hope you enjoy your visit to southern Poland. There's plenty to see, including the Tatra Mountains, the Wieliczka salt mine, and many other beautiful spots. Be sure to visit Kazimierz, the Jewish quarter in Krakow, and definitely the elegant restaurants and cafeterias around Krakow's main square to get a feel of the Secession period and Franz Joseph's Empire. This is a link you might find interesting for lot's of other places I haven't mentioned:
  
  
  
  Cheers, JozefΒ 

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message11

• Message 12

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  Re: Message 2.
  
  Falcon,
  
  excuse me for forgetting to answer to your reply and BTW thank you very much for it.
  
  I am reading for the moment a bit every where about the question. For instance the story of Jean Monnet (900 pages) as for the American planes that the French bought. I am not sure if they had already received them and if the French pilots had trained with them. As we have seen the airforce was not combined with the tanks and infantry, but perhaps in sheer numbers they could tackle the Germans? Have to do more research? Perhaps my Swedish friend Hasse can help?
  
  All that to say that you can be right. And there was still the big question mark: the Sovjet-Union?
  
  After all they had the Franco-Sovjet Pact. Perhaps if France started, Britain would follow by the public opinion in Britain? And then the Sovjets could enter despite the Polish objections through a part of Poland, (despite the Polish Beck? Jozef, have to check, can you say something about this?)
  
  FEC, was making a study about it at the university. FEC can you say something about it or about the Franco-Sovjet Pact?
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message12

• Message 13

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  Re: Message 6.
  
  Tim,
  
  I was reading during research for a "French Parliamentary Investigating Committee" after the war, but after more than an hour search on the net I didn't find anything.
  
  But coincidentally I ran into a book of a certain Paul Rassinier, about the run up to WWII. The book was published on the net and that is already dubious. I started to read and as I know now a bit of the story (smile) I saw increasingly other opinions than what I read until now. As that it was the fault of the Jews, Roosevelt, Churchill, Reynaud, Mandel. Chamberlain, Bonnet, even Daladier were the good guys seeking for peace. As I read Daladier, as the cabinet was much more for war than Bonnet, and certainly a lot more than Chamberlain. And Reynaud seems to have been also for war, but seems to be turned later to armistice after 14 May 1940. As I read it, it was Bonnet, who was the "bad guy".
  
  I did research for Paul Rassinier and he is a "negationist" as Irving. He came from Communist to Neo-Nazi. And as you read his book, he uses all the same facts as the other historians, but he links it together on another way (I didn't read Irving) and gives opinions and estimations that are not based on facts and it was there that I started to be suspicious. I don't know if there is something available in English? I read it all in French.
  
  That's for me again a lesson to be prudent with research on google. And it is also a proof that most people in my thread about "history", were right, when they said that from the same story you can, by different interpretation, make a complete other story of it.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message13

• Message 14

  , in reply to message 13.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 28th March 2006

  Addendum message 13.
  
  Tim,
  
  did some research for an English language site about: Paul Rassinier.
  
  Had a lot of pro-negationists. In English, German, Swedish and so on.
  
  
  
  All the other anti-negationists were in French or other languages.
  
  I found the first IMO reliable on google paul rassinier window 10 after some 140 entries.
  
  
  
  If you understad French there are more anti-negationist entries.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message14

• Message 15

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Hasse (U1882612) on Wednesday, 29th March 2006

  Paul
  
  My friend,you are right in that in the long run had the Checks a hopeless strategic situation after Anscluss of Austria.
  
  But as somebody earlier stated in 1938,wasnt the German army strong enough espicially on heavy equipment and airforce.To battle down a at that time,more modern better equiped with a heavily fortified frontier Check army.
  
  A assult on Checkoslovakia 1938 would have weakenend the German army so much that they would have been an easy prey for the allies or the Poles.
  You have to take in consideration,that when Germany attacked Poland in sep 39,was a great portion of their Panzer and artillery of Skoda(Check)fabrication.
  
  So the sell out of Checkia did give the German armouring a boost of at least a year.
  
  A German attack on Checkoslavikia that hadnt been betrayed by GB and France,would end in a weakend Germany which had been defeated by France or Poland at latest in early 39.
  
  Or Hitler would be ousted since a German attack 38 could at best be a Pyrric victory.
  
  Y friend
  
  Hasse

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message15

• Message 16

  , in reply to message 15.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 30th March 2006

  Re: Message 15.
  
  Hasse, my friend,
  
  thank you very much for your information. You remember perhaps that I found the different numbers of tanks and planes in the several camps on the eve of the Battle of France? I would have to do the same now on the eve of the occupation of Sudetenland.
  
  But at that moment the Sovjet-Union was still a friend of the allies and has perhaps to be added to the allies?
  
  I read now that the German generals, (Jodl, Beck, Halder, I have to seek for confirmmation), Keitel, von Manstein said on the Nuremberg trials that they couldn't break through the Czech fortifications at that time and the poor trained 12 divisions could not defend the West flanc against the trained much more divisions of the French, as the Siegfried line was just started and certainly not defensible yet.
  
  Tim of Aclea and Falcon are right I think, Germany wasn't yet fully prepared for war.
  
  I found that the 1000 American planes weren't delivered yet to the French but in sheer numbers the French could taken the Germans from the West, while the Czech fortifications could be held, certainly the time for the Sovjets to come to the help. However, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Jozef Beck seems to be more inclined to the Germans than to the Sovjets (Jozef, can you explain that, I have still to do research about that) and some in Britain and France were fearing an advance of the Sovjet influence in Czechia and by that in Poland.
  
  But as you said from military point of view it was Germany that would have been defeated hadn't GB and France not betrayed Czechoslovakia.
  
  Yes and BTW. there was the plot of the German generals with Beck and Halder to jail or to murder Hitler on that 28th September the day of the ultimate confrontation. But then came Mussolini asked by Chamberlain as middle man when he replied to Hitler's letter in a so-called "last appeal" and Chamberlain was so pleased.
  
  Din vän,
  
  Paul.

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message16

• Message 17

  , in reply to message 16.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 30th March 2006

  Addendum message 16.
  
  Hasse,
  
  about Jozef Beck:
  
  
  
  About the road to Munich: from the Polish born Anna M. Cienciala.
  
  
  
  About the games Hungary, Poland, Romania played after the Munich appeasement:
  
  
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

  Link to this forum: Anschluss doomscenario Czechoslovakia?

  Report message17

Back to top