Wars and Conflicts permalink
Rhineland re-occupation by France 1936?
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Â
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 15th March 2006
What if by some kind of wonder instead of General Gamelin you had had for instance a de Gaulle in the function of Gamelin? A de Gaulle available when PM Sarraut asked for a French intervention, perhaps backed by a Paul Reynaud?
On the crucial Sunday 8th March you needed only a French police action to expell again the few companies of Germans, who had entered on 7 March. Germany had not yet an army at that moment.
Hitler said later: "if the French had marched into the Rhineland, we would have had to withdraw with the tails between our legs"
Even the German General Alfred Jodl testified after the war that the Germans had no forces to withstand the French at that time. -
Message 2
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Friday, 17th March 2006
.....+ Raymond Poincare in the function of the
French PM.....
Beyond of the whole thing were hidden
the British and French old-fashioned cowardice and fear before the war .
Lord Lothian claimed on 8 March 1936
that Germans simply entered into their own back
yards....'It is all the same like if Brits have 'occupied' the Portsmouth again !' (George Bernard Shaw).
Sir W.Churchill was affected by the book of Giulio Douhet 'The Command of Air' (the plans of creating radars were still on paper and minds of scientists) at such degree that he even figured out these 40,000 of Londoners who ,as he thought, should die from the German air attacks during the first week of war.
There was really no visible power to force 'em to
fight.... Hitler felt that and acted very fast.....+ while the Western powers and LN both were 'deciding' of what was to
to be done with Mussolini 's invasion in Ethiopia. -
Message 3
Posted by Mark (U1347077) on Friday, 17th March 2006
I think the Third Republic was in too much turmoil in 1936 to make a decisive action against Germany occupying Germany. Much of Hitler's strategy was bluff and always portrayed his forces as stronger than they were. After having their country and a generation devastated less than 20 years earlier, France was not united enough to risk that again.
In hindsight, countering Hitler's expansion before 1939 would have countered his ambitions for years - the German High Command was ready to overthrow him rather than risk war. It was only with his successes in 1938 that Hitler was secure enough for a war in 1939.
Had the Western democracies been firmer with Hitler, then World War 2 would have been delayed. However, many saw the Communists as as much of a threat and a renewed Germany as an effective bulwark. Coupled with disarmament and unrest, it made decisive action difficult. -
Message 4
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Friday, 17th March 2006
'However, many saw the Communists as as much of a threat and a renewed Germany as an effective bulwark'yes,Hitler very successfully exploited the idea that if his regime would be removed from the power in Germany the next ones who had come instead of him should be the Rosa's followers.But when he said these words... then he indirectly had recognized the ideological intimacy existed between NAZI's movement and commies.
-
Message 5
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 18th March 2006
Re: message 2, 3, 4.
OUNUPA and Mahros,
thank you very much for your interesting replies. I wanted to answer them both now, but for an unknow reason I, for the first time in weeks, lost a message to "lol beeble" on "the history hub". Coincidentally it was an elaborated one in which I had put a lot of work.
I have not the courage anymore this evening to edit something on these boards.
Warm regards to both,
Paul. -
Message 6
Posted by donkei (U1801634) on Sunday, 19th March 2006
One of the main reasons Hitler lost WW2 was because he became convinced (wrongly) of his own un-invincibility and made some disastrous errors of judgment as a result.
If he had been resisted in 1936-1938 he might have retained a greater sense of reality. WW2 might have been delayed, but if Albert Speer had been able to work his magic on German industry before the outbreak of war, how much more terrible might that war have been?
Even had Hitler been ousted as a result of failure of his foreign policy in 1936-38, I think the political mood in Germany had already been so inflamed that WW2 would have happened anyway. With greater rationality in its leadership as well as greater military might the potential consequences are terrible to contemplate.
Effectively resisting Hitler in 1936 might have been the worst thing the countries of western Europe could have done! -
Message 7
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 21st March 2006
Re: Message 2,3,4,6.
Ounupa, Mahros, Donkei,
I come back to you tomorrow. I bump this forwards for memory.
Warm regards to the three of you. -
Message 8
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 23rd March 2006
Re: Message 2.
OUNUPA,
excuse for the late reply.
Yes, of course, Raymond Poincaré, but he died 15 October 1934. He was already retired for health reasons in 1929.
OUNUPA, I know you wanted to say it in a "what if" And yes, if a de Gaulle was Army Chief and a Poincaré as PM, would have been at hand, I think the Admirals of the Navy, as the Chiefs of the Air Force would have to follow.
Poincaré as in 1926 had perhaps still the trust of the French right? In any case of the Radical-Socialists, I suppose. And perhaps as trusted by the whole French population, he could have also had more support for the Franco-Sovjet Pact, which was also seen by the British Right as a dangerous liaison.
And if the French had moved alone, I think that in that stage, unless as when Poincaré moved into the Rhineland on 11 January 1923, the British would have reluctantly have supported, especially if the operation would be a succes as expected, especially by the German! generals...
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 9
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 23rd March 2006
Re: Message 3.
Mahros,
excuse for the late reply.
Yes, France was in turmoil. I mention it much from Shirer's book I am reading. He was a witness in Paris, Berlin and London, living there and as an American perhaps not so biased as other sources. He goes quite in depth with original quotes and he had access on the very moment to the highest ranks of both French and German offices. Later he double-checked after the war to write his books. I checked the events he describes by other sources and until now I have found no failure at all.
France was in the middle of an embittered poll struggle, between Right and Left.
And on the Right you had powerful Fascist movements, as by the way in Belgium and I think already with the NSB in the Netherlands too. But in France they were more vicious as the royalist Action Française, Jeunesses Patriotes, the Croix de Feu and others backed by right wing rich industrials.
The Left had the Socialists and the Communists, but these Communists were rather defiant to the Stalin international party line.
And yes the Left made the Front Populaire with the Jewish Léon Blum as PM. Even my mother in Belgium, who was mostly as a middle class more rightist, said to me after WWII that he was an honest man, who was really looking for the benefit of all French. And in the light of all that internal turmoil, the common Frenchmen, weren't that concerned with Hitler's Rhineland re-occupation.
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 10
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 23rd March 2006
Re: message 4.
OUNUPA,
yes an abhorrence of the Commies. It existed everywhere in the interwar period I think. In Holland and in Belgium, especially in Flanders and less in Wallonia. But there you had also a far right party, strongly opposed to the Commies: REX. In France the Commies were perhaps more accepted, but there they were IMO never Bolsheviks. As for Spain? The Frente Popular was perhaps more fanatic than the Front Populaire in France? And the Spanish right backed by the strong old-fashioned Church was perhaps as fanatic, even perhaps more than the Socialists/Communists?
And yes, to come back on Germany even before the Nazitime most Germans were right wing or moderate Socialist after the failure of the Rosa's followers. BTW. IMO it was the constant struggle between the Stalin Party Line Commies and the moderate Socialist party the biggest of Europe, which added to the collapse of the Weimar Republic. Had the German Commies been more independent from Stalin as in France and formed a "Volksfront" with the Socialists, Hitler wouldn't perhaps been able to come to power?
For Britain I really don't know. I made a study for the right-wing leagues immediately after WWI in Britain, but of the further evolution of right and left in the interwar period I don't know that much. If a British contributor can enlighten me?
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 11
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 23rd March 2006
Re: message 6.
Donkei,
as ever you have such thought-provoking messages. I doubt on the first sight, but you can be right too. We will never know.
It has a lot to do, IMO with the mood of the common German people. If one could have done to Germany what Roosevelt did to the US after the depression and with Germans more disciplined (big smile) than the French, it was a real possibility IMO.
Even to give an example about Belgium, once the economic level was again acceptable, the right-wing parties decreased immediately even with that big brother party at the East border.
With esteem,
Paul.
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or  to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Â鶹ԼÅÄ iD
Â鶹ԼÅÄ navigation
Â鶹ԼÅÄ links
Â鶹ԼÅÄ Â© 2014 The Â鶹ԼÅÄ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.