Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Panzer IV
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by Mark (U1347077) on Thursday, 23rd February 2006
Would Germany have been better concentrating on the Panzer IV, as Guderian wanted, instead of additionally producing Panzer Vs and VIs?
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Message 2
Posted by Local Hero (U3080508) on Thursday, 23rd February 2006
Probably not. The Panzer IV was already outclassed by the T-34, and since the Russians could produce vast numbers of this tank, the Germans needed a new tank to regain the quality advantage and offset their quantity disadvantage.
Michael -
Message 3
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Thursday, 23rd February 2006
Hello Mahros,
Not heard from you for a while!
I'd say no, they probably wouldn't have done better sticking with the Pz Mk IV. However, they would have been better off sticking with a standard model (I'd suggest the Tiger), and mass producing it, rather than having lots of different types of tank, and different variants in production. The Tiger was capable of taking out anything the allies (both soviet and Western) could throw at it, and was practically invincible in a 1 on 1 tank scrap against all comers, so why bother with the Panther, and why bother developing and building the King Tiger? It was overkill!
I'd suggest going with the Tiger, and lots of them. Stick with the design, the armour and the gun, but simplify some of the over-engineered features which made it so difficult to mass produce. -
Message 4
Posted by Brevabloke (U1685837) on Thursday, 23rd February 2006
I'd almost agree with you DL, but would say they would have been better off with the Panther - better all around mobility and x-country performance?
Mind you problems would have arisen dealing with the JS-3 and suchlike, and the Centurion and Pershing. -
Message 5
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Thursday, 23rd February 2006
No, I'd still say the Tiger was an all-round better tank than the Panther.
IMO it was the best Main Battle Tank of WW2, and if they'd stayed with it rather than going for new designs and just modified it was they went along (as they did with the Panzer IV) then it would have been a match for anything the allies had to throw at it. -
Message 6
Posted by Local Hero (U3080508) on Thursday, 23rd February 2006
However, the Tiger was a fundamentally defensive weapon. To mass produce this would have been to recognise that the Wehrmacht was no longer capable of mass, fast offensives. It was also too much of a gas-guzzler. The Germans would have run out of fuel for it even quicker than they did.
Perhaps the Panther without the over-engineered aspects, or another all-rounder of a tank would have been the best option?
Michael -
Message 7
Posted by Mark (U1347077) on Thursday, 23rd February 2006
Hi DL.
Thanks for the replies: its pretty much my thinking - they cant compete for quantity so go for quality, which is why I found it odd that Guderian wanted more of the Panzer IVs. When available, the Tigers seemed to have made a powerful difference. Unless it was down to air superiority - a Typhoon is going to knock out a Tiger as easily as a Pzr IV but that would have been less of a factor in the east.
I seem to recall the 122mm of the JS-3 had relatively poor armour-piercing capability - more on par with the L51 88mm than post war 120mm guns. -
Message 8
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Thursday, 23rd February 2006
Was the Tiger not prone to mechanical breakdown s well?
If someone like Guderian wanted ore Panzer IVs, he presumably had a reason. Any idea what it was? -
Message 9
Posted by Hasse (U1882612) on Thursday, 23rd February 2006
DL
For once do I dissagree with you,in my eyes was the Phanter a far better tank than the Tiger,which was to slow and rather unreiable in the mechanic.
Mahos
IΒ΄m not agreeing that the T-34 was outclassing the Panzer IV.
The Panzer IVF with the 75 mm canon was able to knock out a T-34 at about the same range as the T-34 could take out the PIV.
The Russkies had advantage of speed,but the P IV had much more advanced and better optical sightings wich gave them higher accurasy.
The Germans had better communication than the Russians wich made it not at all conclusive that a battle between eqeual numbers of P IV and T-34,would goes to the T-34.
TonyG
Why Guderian wanted more P-IV its not that hard to understand,numbers the German industry was geared for making PIII ths and P-IV,which had simpler design than the Tiger and Phanter.
IΒ΄ve seen figures that they could produce about four P-IV for every Tiger.
Y friend
Hasse -
Message 10
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Friday, 24th February 2006
Good morning Hasse! Hope you are well, and not too cold out there!!!
The Tiger may well have had initial mechanical problems (as we all saw in Zitadelle) but my thoughts are that they would have been better concentrating on maintaining the Tiger, and modifying it. As it was a very old-style design (flat-fronted armour) there was room for massive improvement, without the huge leap in design that the KingTiger was.
Had they taken the Tiger and simply added a more powerful engine, and added bolt-on sloped armour, it would have been even more formidable.
Although, even with that advantage, a Typhoon or Thunderbolt would have still shot them to pieces on the western front. -
Message 11
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Friday, 24th February 2006
Im not sure that thats the case the Tiger1 engine and gear box are pulling so much weight they are pretty much operating to the limits of their capabilities. The tank museum tried to get one of theirs running a while back and it spat the engine out in lumps even after a full re build.
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Message 12
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Friday, 24th February 2006
Hasse,
I appreciate that Guderian wanted numbers of PIVs, my question was rally aimed at why he wnated this. Is there any point in having large numbers of tanks which are outclassed by T34s? What I am getting at is that Guderian must have thought that they were not outclassed, as you have pointed out. -
Message 13
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 24th February 2006
Would Germany have been better concentrating on the Panzer IV, as Guderian wanted, instead of additionally producing Panzer Vs and VIs?Β
Well, my two pence.
It's a fine line, the Mk V is a superb tank and much better technically than the MK IV. The Mk VI took tank design to a new level.
However, the last two variants of the MkIV were a match for the T34 and Sherman (the German armies main opponents). There are great advantages in standardisation of parts, training of tank and maintenance crews. The railway cars to transport the Mk IVs were already there, plus the MK IV although it has a fuel consumption that would make me weep if I had to drive it to work is about 40% of a Mk VI.
So, I find myself agreeing with DL. Realistically the Germans had to do something as they couldn't rely upon the Mk IV to change the tide and should have spent the resource on developing one new tank, and although the Panther is fine it to is a thirsty beast (not far behind the Tiger) and the job it was asked to do could have been done by the Mk IV, especially if the Germans had spent a bit of the engineering effort that went into the Panther was spent producing a decent drive for the turret.
So, produce extra Mk IVs instead of the Panther and go with the Tiger.
TonyG, One reason Guderian may have been so fond of the Mk IV is that the original mark was produced to his personal specification.
Cheers AA. -
Message 14
Posted by Hasse (U1882612) on Friday, 24th February 2006
DL
As you point out the Tiger was a old moddell,actually not worth working on since it more or less had reached its peak acording motor and armour.
Whitout the superb 88 gun would it have been a disaster.
After 1942 had Germany lost its chanse to win the war,if not a superweapon was developed or some main opponent would fold or get tired of fighting.
The best they could hope for was some form of stalemate.
Ther wasnt any tank in the field with total supremacy,my guess is if you are prepared to lose men is 4 P IV a more effective weapon than one Tiger or Phanter.
Zittadelle (Kursk) was mostly fought with PIII and PIV on the german side.
Hasse -
Message 15
Posted by Hasse (U1882612) on Friday, 24th February 2006
Tony
Yes he tought that the refiened P IV was equal to the rest,and numbers tell.
With another development on the high presure 75 cannon,as the germans had going,he could very well be right.
Anyway was the resources put on King tiger and jachtelephant,total failure they where usseless dreadnoughts.
Hasse -
Message 16
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 24th February 2006
Tony
Anyway was the resources put on King tiger and jachtelephant,total failure they where usseless dreadnoughts.
±α²Ή²υ²υ±πΜύ
Hasse, I'm very glad the Germans developed the Elefant tank. It makes me laugh.
This also gives me a chance to point out that my remarks above refer to the Panzer Mk VI (Tiger) Mark I and not the later absurdity.
Cheers AA. -
Message 17
Posted by Hasse (U1882612) on Friday, 24th February 2006
AA
Eloguent and well read as always,we are out on those hairsplitting that makes those boards so fun when they are at best.
I still stand my case that maybe it shouldnt be bad both tactically and strategicly keeping on the same moddeling line of tanks.
The Phanter was in reality an extension of the PIV,since they are moulded from the same undercarriage(chassi).
The only thing talking for putting resources on the Tiger,is that it was a Tank best suited defensive and rearguard auctions,wich of course was the the Wermacht main role after 1942.
Cheers
Hasse.
P.S.
Are going to have a large snifter of superb prewar Cognac,celebrating Swedens Olympics good efforts.Did inherrit a couple of crates,from an uncle 17 years ago.Still have 34 bottles left,are going to save at least 5 to my son. -
Message 18
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Saturday, 25th February 2006
Hasse, I'm very glad the Germans developed the Elefant tank. It makes me laugh.
.Μύ
Still, not perhaps the best reason for a tank design! For real comedy value, though, the prize has to go to the Maus, although it never saw service. A 75mm AND an 88mm gun in one tank!
I'm still going to stick with the Panther. The Tiger is a bit of a lumbering brute and the Panther's 75mm gun had better penetrative power than the Tiger's 88mm. -
Message 19
Posted by Local Hero (U3080508) on Saturday, 25th February 2006
Actually, considering the comedy value of the Elefant and the Maus, there were plans afoot for Krupps to build a 1000 ton 'land monitor' to help stem the tide in the Eastern Front. I would have loved to have seen that, though perhaps not fought it!
Michael -
Message 20
Posted by Hasse (U1882612) on Saturday, 25th February 2006
Anglo,Michael
I guess if you go in and look in the planning deparments,of all armies or big companies you find a lot of idiotic projects.
Its as it should be sometimes do you stumble on a gold egg,or some untought spinn off.
To problem is to stop the planning in time since a project that have gone to far seems more or less impossible to stop,howewer insane its is.
One of the best engenring jokes in the WWII,is the german engineer who did get the ocupation to test if the good French artillery piece Richeliu,should be used,since the Germans had capture loads of guns and ammo.
The enginer went to the work with seal and tested and tested,in the end of the war did he turn to German HQ and asked for starting making some more ammo for his tests,since he had shot up all the captured one nearly 5 years earlier.
I havent get clear of if he was incompetent or the best and most effective german resisting the nazis.
Hasse -
Message 21
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 27th February 2006
Michael,
If I remember rightly there were also plans to produce a 250 ton monster as well, which had been given the rather bizarre nickname of "The Mouse". I've seen a drawing of this thing on some programme or other, I forget where, and it really is one weird looking thing. Almost curved and streamlined in appearance, and with a huge gun stuck on it.
The mind boggles.... -
Message 22
Posted by Mark (U1347077) on Monday, 27th February 2006
I don't know how well the Pzr IVs would do against the later T-34/85s but if the Germans could have produced four times as many Pzr IVs as of their later models then that could well be why Guderian was keen. Certainly the King Tiger and Jagd Tiger seem a poor use of resources. Perhaps he was hoping the tanks would be given to experienced Whermacht units where as the latest productions tended to go to the SS or newly created units.
The Elefant was flawed but it seems its use was more at fault than the vehicle itself. Being able to destroy a T-34 at 3km distance is useful as long as the Elefant is used on defence and with infantry support.
As a secondary question - does anyone know why the Germans were able to develop guns that fired HE as well as AP so much earlier than the Allies? Certainly the 40mm 2 pounders could only fire solid shot and possibly the later 57mm 6 pounders? -
Message 23
Posted by Brevabloke (U1685837) on Monday, 27th February 2006
How good was the Pershing by the way? It looks to be a Tiger beater, and the Centurion....
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