Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Culloden? No thanks!
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Message 1.Β
Posted by Sabre-Wulf (U2142937) on Monday, 13th February 2006
OK, its April 1746. The day before the Battle of Culloden. Finally Bonnie Prince Charlie sees sense and is talked out of facing the British in pitched battle. Agreeing to board a ship back to France the Jacobites melt away back to their homes, abandoning their hopes of a Jacobite ruler.
Any ideas on the major changes which would arise from these actions? -
Message 2
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Monday, 13th February 2006
I think the Highlanders would still have had to face severe punishment for their rebellious dealings with the Stuarts. With a large army already north of the border, I'm sure King George would have taken the opportunity to nail down the Highlands once and for all. In such situations, the civilian population bear the brunt, so in that respect I don't think history would be that much different for the Scots except the clans would not have been decimated as they were at Culloden. That would have come later with starvation and disease.
If Charlie's advisers hadn't fallen for the false intelligence fed to them at Derby, and continued on to London, I think history would be very different indeed. A Catholic Stuart King on the throne supported by a French army of occupation, pretty scary stuff. -
Message 3
Posted by DrkKtn6851746 (U2746042) on Monday, 13th February 2006
Straying off topic a bit, I don't think that the rebellion ever stood much of a chance & if the Young Pretender had carried on from Derby he'd just've been defeated sooner, possibly on English soil. The rebels only ever really controlled the ground they were standing on & their baggage train was raided by loyal locals before they even left Scotland (at Ecclefechan).
Back to the main point of the thread, I agree that the result would probably have been much the same. The hunt for the YP himself was effectively called off once it was realised just how much of an embarrassment he'd prove if captured (what to do with him?). I'm not sure the '45w= was of any great historical significance compared to, e.g., the clearances a couple of generations later. The initial suppression of the highlands was harsh, but the death of the Old Pretender in 1766, accession of the Tory George III in 1760 & American War of Independence (in which highlanders were amongst the crown's strongest supporters) resulted in a thorough realignment of the various factions in Scotland. -
Message 4
Posted by Slimdaddy101 (U2553470) on Monday, 13th February 2006
Good question. Like earlier contributers I don't think avoiding the battle would have made things any easier for the Scots. The Duke of Cumberland was determined to make a point and was determined to crush any hint of support for BPC.
However, the field of Culloden itself was a terrible place for Charlie to chose to fight. His army suffered a prolonged barrage from the Dukes forces with little or no protection. The traditional highland charge was all but extinguised before it reached the Dukes lines due to the bracken, bog and uneven surface. Why he picked Culloden is a mystery to me. With a more suitable battlefield, which the rebel army had ample time to select, things may have turned out differently.
Again, a frontal assualt the rebels had proved successful in previous encounters, however the Dukes army had been expecting this and trained for it. A variation of the rebels tactics certiainly have gave the Duke food for thought. Avioding Culloden and adopting a hit and run campaign may have lessened the Dukes stomach a fight.
To pick up on another point raised in another post; what to do if BPC was captured, I'm sure he would have been hung, drawn and quartered. -
Message 5
Posted by Sabre-Wulf (U2142937) on Monday, 13th February 2006
I believe it was O'Sullivan his Irish advisor who picked the battlefield. Whoever it was made a terrible mistake. I've been to Culloden a few times and just looking at the distance and the terrain over which the Highlanders had to charge is scary.
Any attempts to hit and run would probably have just lead to reprisals against civilians, capturing of livestock and so on which probably wouldn't have worked long term.
I guess a better question might be what would have happened if the Chiefs at Gelnfinnan had just told him to turn around and get back on his boat! -
Message 6
Posted by snowjokeatall (U2055291) on Monday, 13th February 2006
I have also been to the Battle site on a number of occasions. Like you I am amazed that any one could contemplate running on that surface. I did read somewhere that the terrain is worse now than it was.
But still a bad selection for the traditonal Scots tactics. -
Message 7
Posted by DrkKtn6851746 (U2746042) on Monday, 13th February 2006
Culloden moor certainly wasn't ideal for the rebels, but I'm not convinced that all Cumberland had to do was turn up & win. Once he'd advanced onto the moor & surveyed the ground, he altered the disposition of his forces, thinning his line & extending his left flank. I believe this may have been significant as it was against the leftmost end of the main government line (Barrell's 4th Foot) that the Jacobite attack fell most heavily & at Prestonpans the Jacobites had (accidentally) hit the redcoats on their flanks & won.
As for the fate of the Young Pretender, had he been captured, I suspect that execution would've been by beheading rather than HDQ, had it happened, as this was the fate of the three rebel lords who were captured. That being said, I'm not convinced that he would've been executed at all: 1) it might've suited Hanoverian propaganda better to treat him as a foreign invader rather than a traitor (cf the Irish troops in French service who were captured); 2) the Hanoverians may have been wary of setting such a precedent in an era in which they were still leading troops on the battlefield in person. -
Message 8
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Monday, 13th February 2006
Interesting subject. I agree that Cumberland would still have ravaged the Highlands, probably forcing the clans to turn the war into a guerrilla type conflict which may have dragged on for years. The London government had come too close to falling for comfort and would have dished out retribution whether Charlie fought or not.
For Charlie himself, I think it was then, or never. If he had fled without a fight, his standing would not have been good amongst his supporters. Better to have declined to fight on that day and looked for a chance to use his army's greater mobility to lure Cumberland into a situation where his firepower could be less effective. Prestonpans showed what the Jacobite army could do. OK, they got a bit lucky with the mist concealing their flanking movement but in Scotland, those weather conditions are hardly unique and another opportunity would have come along. In my view, it was plain daft to stand and fight at Culloden after an abortive night march had left most of his men exhausted.
As for the terrain at Culloden, I agree it looks pretty awful to us, but much of the Highlands is covered in heather and uneven and the Highland charge would not have been held up too much by that. What caused the problem was standing for too long facing an artillery barrage, the marshy ground preventing one wing from striking home and, basically, too far to run. Where they did strike home, they had a fair bit of success. -
Message 9
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Tuesday, 14th February 2006
I guess a better question might be what would have happened if the Chiefs at Gelnfinnan had just told him to turn around and get back on his boat! Β
Thats a good point. There is a story that at least one of the clan chiefs told Charlie to go home, to which he replied "I am come home sir".
He arrived with something like seven troops, so why they took him seriously in the first place is a mystery to me. Charlie made constant promises of a large French army coming to support the cause, but I'm baffled as to why these Highlanders followed Charlie as they did, when they had such little support. So soon after the Boyne, don't you think the Scots would have been a bit more hesitant to follow the YP?? -
Message 10
Posted by lubomir67 (U2635480) on Sunday, 19th February 2006
I have also been to the Battle site on a number of occasions. Like you I am amazed that any one could contemplate running on that surface. I did read somewhere that the terrain is worse now than it was.
But still a bad selection for the traditonal Scots tactics.Β
I remember reading a couple of months ago that sheep are being brought onto the battlefield to make it more realistic to what it was like in 1746. The land wasnt as bad back then for running on as it would be today due to the sheep grazing. The real problem was that it was too flat, allowing artillery to decimate the Jacobites prior to the charge. -
Message 11
Posted by Pu-239 (U2576192) on Sunday, 19th February 2006
Yes, when I was there last summer I saw a couple.
The NTS are also building a new visitors center and trying to buy some of the land that surrounds (possibly was part of?)the battlefield. Unfortunately Culloden has become a very popular place to live. -
Message 12
Posted by dmatt74 (U1690430) on Sunday, 19th February 2006
The support for Bonnie Prince Charles was weak from the start, no doubt due to the experience of the 1715 rebellion. To have picked the battlefield and to have marched your troops until they were exhausted was a double-mistake.
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