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Political Islam
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Message 1.聽
Posted by rooneyspie (U1858084) on Thursday, 9th February 2006
This may as well be on the Islamic MB, but I think my argument involves politics, history and rational arguments which will only be met with emotional reactions.
My first point is that untill the enlightenment, the roles were reversed: The Church had Europe clenched in an iron fist. Witch hunts, effigy burning and exorcism were common-place. Courts ruled according to Church doctrine (whether Catholic or Reformed) and women had barely any rights in society.
Islam practised in the Ottoman and Moghul Empires of the day was in some contrast: Al Andalus was a multi-cultural kingdom where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in harmony in medieval Spain.
In India Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists lived side-by-side - most notably in what is Pakistan today.
The Ottoman Empire of the Early Modern period was a vast empire comprising many different cultures. Whilst Islam was the official religion, Jews and Christians were granted far greater freedom than they are anywhere in the Muslim world today.
The picture changed during the colonial period and the demise of the Ottoman Empire. A new form of Islam emerged, proclaiming a philosophy of going "back to the roots", to the heart of Islam, the Koran and Hadith. Wahhabism was born. Not only did the literal interpretation of religious texts and decrees give a new identity to people who had for centuries been cast aside by corrupt dynasties, it served well as a political instrument.
Where in Europe secularism, the Nation State and mass-education policies had set in in tow with industrialisation and Empire, the lands of the East had stagnated.
With masses of destitute, suppressed and illiterate people waiting for salvation, political Islam's chance had come.
By the end of Ottoman rule in the Middle East, European powers had set up their own cartel-rule system only to be followed by the corrupt regimes of today.
What I am trying to say is that the Middle East is about to undergo its very own enlightenment; its success should signal the end of Islamic Fundamentalism -
Message 2
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Thursday, 9th February 2006
we can only hope your prediction has a grain of truth to it
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Message 3
Posted by jberie (U1767537) on Friday, 10th February 2006
Why do you make this prediction? What evidence do you have for an Islamic enlightenment?
If by "enlightenment" you mean "resurgence" that is something else. I see an Islamic resurgence.
I live in a small city in the US, with a small Muslim population (there is even a mosque). Even here, in the American South, Muslim women are covering their heads, and some wear a veil.
Journalists and papers in America will criticize Christian fundamentalists, but not Muslims, because they fear to do so. -
Message 4
Posted by Tas (U1753225) on Saturday, 11th February 2006
This may as well be on the Islamic MB, but I think my argument involves politics, history and rational arguments which will only be met with emotional reactions.
My first point is that untill the enlightenment, the roles were reversed: The Church had Europe clenched in an iron fist. Witch hunts, effigy burning and exorcism were common-place. Courts ruled according to Church doctrine (whether Catholic or Reformed) and women had barely any rights in society.
Islam practised in the Ottoman and Moghul Empires of the day was in some contrast: Al Andalus was a multi-cultural kingdom where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in harmony in medieval Spain.
In India Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists lived side-by-side - most notably in what is Pakistan today.
The Ottoman Empire of the Early Modern period was a vast empire comprising many different cultures. Whilst Islam was the official religion, Jews and Christians were granted far greater freedom than they are anywhere in the Muslim world today.
The picture changed during the colonial period and the demise of the Ottoman Empire. A new form of Islam emerged, proclaiming a philosophy of going "back to the roots", to the heart of Islam, the Koran and Hadith. Wahhabism was born. Not only did the literal interpretation of religious texts and decrees give a new identity to people who had for centuries been cast aside by corrupt dynasties, it served well as a political instrument.
Where in Europe secularism, the Nation State and mass-education policies had set in in tow with industrialisation and Empire, the lands of the East had stagnated.
With masses of destitute, suppressed and illiterate people waiting for salvation, political Islam's chance had come.
By the end of Ottoman rule in the Middle East, European powers had set up their own cartel-rule system only to be followed by the corrupt regimes of today.
What I am trying to say is that the Middle East is about to undergo its very own enlightenment; its success should signal the end of Islamic Fundamentalism聽
Dear rooneyspie,
You are obviously trying to find an answer to the present version of 鈥淚n Your Face鈥 attitude that is giving Muslims a bad reputation. I think the problem is very deep-rooted and will take a long time to solve because Muslims have not even arrived at the first stage, which is to admit that there is a problem.
In 632 AD when Islam started, it was a forward-looking philosophy in the context of the time that tried to address the problems that existed with the then society, and in Christianity and Judaism of that period. Even before the medieval period, it gave women some rights, the right to property and the right to divorce. It was completely against idolatry in that it forbade any images, not only of God and his prophet, but also of any human being. It had no priesthood therefore, long before Protestantism Islam put Man directly in touch with the Creator.
During the Abbasid Caliphate, there was real intellectual flowering of the Islamic World, in Mathematics, Philosophy, Medicine and Literature. The great Greek thinkers were translated into Arabic and passed on to a dark ages Europe through the aegis of Islamic Spain.
However at that point the Muslims decided to go on a long sleep from which they are still not waking up. When Napoleon went to Egypt (about 1796 AD) to fashion an Empire in the East, he was met in the battle of the Pyramids by a huge flock of Egyptian Mameluke Cavalry in brocades and jewels and fancy turbans. One whiff of Napoleon鈥檚 artillery and the much-vaunted Mameluke army was in flight.
If the Muslims were as farsighted as the Japanese were when faced with Western warships showing a completely new level of development in the art of war, they would like the Japanese have gone to school for the next several generations in learning from the West. The result is the Japan has not only had a renaissance but are now in a postindustrial age. Where as America鈥檚 biggest corporation General Motors in some disarray Toyota is booming and about to overtake GM as the biggest automobile producer in the World.
Today political power comes not from an army or even a navy but from industrial prowess and in this area the Islamic World is sadly lacking. In an age of complex electronics, no Muslim Country can even produce a light bulb.
To become a player in today鈥檚 World the Muslim World has to create an industry not just based on oil but on real production of goods. They have many assets as China, Korea and Japan have shown. They should create a strong Capitalist system of production and combine to have a huge market that the World will be eager to do business with. Then and only then will they become players in the modern World. -
Message 5
Posted by rooneyspie (U1858084) on Monday, 13th February 2006
Dear rooneyspie,
You are obviously trying to find an answer to the present version of 鈥淚n Your Face鈥 attitude that is giving Muslims a bad reputation. I think the problem is very deep-rooted and will take a long time to solve because Muslims have not even arrived at the first stage, which is to admit that there is a problem.
In 632 AD when Islam started, it was a forward-looking philosophy in the context of the time that tried to address the problems that existed with the then society, and in Christianity and Judaism of that period. Even before the medieval period, it gave women some rights, the right to property and the right to divorce. It was completely against idolatry in that it forbade any images, not only of God and his prophet, but also of any human being. It had no priesthood therefore, long before Protestantism Islam put Man directly in touch with the Creator.
During the Abbasid Caliphate, there was real intellectual flowering of the Islamic World, in Mathematics, Philosophy, Medicine and Literature. The great Greek thinkers were translated into Arabic and passed on to a dark ages Europe through the aegis of Islamic Spain.
However at that point the Muslims decided to go on a long sleep from which they are still not waking up. When Napoleon went to Egypt (about 1796 AD) to fashion an Empire in the East, he was met in the battle of the Pyramids by a huge flock of Egyptian Mameluke Cavalry in brocades and jewels and fancy turbans. One whiff of Napoleon鈥檚 artillery and the much-vaunted Mameluke army was in flight.
If the Muslims were as farsighted as the Japanese were when faced with Western warships showing a completely new level of development in the art of war, they would like the Japanese have gone to school for the next several generations in learning from the West. The result is the Japan has not only had a renaissance but are now in a postindustrial age. Where as America鈥檚 biggest corporation General Motors in some disarray Toyota is booming and about to overtake GM as the biggest automobile producer in the World.
Today political power comes not from an army or even a navy but from industrial prowess and in this area the Islamic World is sadly lacking. In an age of complex electronics, no Muslim Country can even produce a light bulb.
To become a player in today鈥檚 World the Muslim World has to create an industry not just based on oil but on real production of goods. They have many assets as China, Korea and Japan have shown. They should create a strong Capitalist system of production and combine to have a huge market that the World will be eager to do business with. Then and only then will they become players in the modern World.
Tas, an excellent post there.
Yes, Arab countries must find an alternative to oil (as we all do).
Sadly, as already highlighted, those in power in these countries have squandered revenue from oil on lavish status symbols and a totalitarian political system with Islam as a tool of oppression - something it was not designed to be.
People in these countries must realise there is a huge problem. The long-term solution is to invest in education, welfare and infrastructure, not palaces and ferarris.
These Muslims should take a long, hard look at Malaysia - a dynamic, diverse Muslim country.
Although Malaysia has its corruption and civil rights issues, it has gone from a country with the economic potential of Ghana in the 50s to a Global Player.
This has been achieved through a blend of investment, good education and progressive Islam.
Prosperity, diversity and education has given people a different outlook on life in Malaysia. -
Message 6
Posted by Mohammadali (U1749930) on Saturday, 18th February 2006
Hi ,
Napoleon鈥檚 entry in Egypt, Ottomans contacts with Europe, British rule in India and above all the model of secular America and France had propelled reformation in Islamic regions in the 19th. Century. After the fall of the Ottomans, their region of influence was being replaced by secular forces. Kemal Ata Turk, Mohammad Ali Jinah, Soekarno, Nasser etc were secular leaders, who helped Muslims achieve freedom from colonialism. One of the main reasons was that the Muslims had realized that their fall from power and entry into stagnation and ultimately subjugation by the colonial forces was Mullah鈥檚 doing.
On the world seen, after centuries of religious cooling and reformation, the first religious revival raises its head in the form of Zionism. Zionism and subsequent Palestinian plight was new ammunition for the mullahs to revive interest in ritualism, and banish reasoning from social morality.
In the Islamic world, the corrupted puppets of colonial powers managed to regroup in the guise of democratic forces. Zionism, double standards in the implementation of UN resolutions, Oil money, western dependence on oil, use of religion to fight USSR in Afghanistan etc. thwarted the democratic movements in Islamic countries before grass root institutions could get hold. Above all, all of the above seeded the revival of Islamism. -
Message 7
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Saturday, 18th February 2006
'To become a player in today鈥檚 World the Muslim World has to create an industry not just based on oil but on real production of goods. They have many assets as China, Korea and Japan have shown. They should create a strong Capitalist system of production and combine to have a huge market that the World will be eager to do business with. Then and only then will they become players in the modern World.'
I have no any objections against that statement...only the one remark-but Russia, not the S.Korea or China, had entered into the Club(8)in 1999!!! without producing of their own 'bulbs'(High-Tech) and now even spit on America鈥檚 biggest corporation General Motors ....+ simultaneously openly shows the strong support to some of Muslim extremist's movements...in Palestine as an example...Muslim World just thinks-uhhu...
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