Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ

Wars and ConflictsΒ  permalink

Marchall Petain

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by U1969296 (U1969296) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006

  Hi Guys
  What sort of guy was he? was he a duplicitous traitor? or Was he a man of the times looking out for Number One
  I must confess I don't know much about him

  Link to this forum: Marchall Petain

  Report message1

• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006

  I grew up on the following - Petain was a great soldier and defender of France in the first world war, who was 'dumped' with the task of ruling France as it was collapsing in the late thirties from depression, social upheaval etc, when he was far too old, who had to choose between what he considered to be the greater risk of France going Bolshevik or handing it over to the Fascists/Nazis who were 'at least' anti-Bolshie. In doing so he made the wrong call, and disgraced himself, and France. He died before he could be shot, I believe. It was a sad end for him (and sadder still for the French he handed over to the Nazis, of course.)
  
  He was sort of the French equivalent of Hindenberg, his old enemy from WWI, who similarly handed Germany over to Hitler and gave them an initial veneer of respectability.
  
  When de Gaulle, whom Churchill loathed and vice versa (my cross is the croix de lorraine etc)(too much alike, the pair of them, one suspects!)arrived in England, after the Fall of France, Churchill said, I believe "General De Gaulle has arrived bringing with him nothing but his suitcase and the honour of France."
  
  This contrasts with Petain, who had lost the honour of France.
  
  Eliza.
  
  Wasn't he the defender of Verdun? (I visited there once - a grim, terrible place.)(Not surprisingly.)
  
  

  Link to this forum: Marchall Petain

  Report message2

• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006

  Oh, one other possible mitigation for Petain, like so many of the WWI veterans, he deplored and feared the thought of yet another war, so it can be argued he handed over France to Hitler in order to save the lives of more Frenchmen (so long as they weren't Jewish/gay/crippled etc, of course.) E.

  Link to this forum: Marchall Petain

  Report message3

• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by YellowSnow (U3136538) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006

  absolutely
  
  he saw what they all saw in the first world war and, it could be argued, that he wanted to save the lives of frenchmen in the second world war from that horrible mess
  
  i myself see him as a bit of a traitor, but if he didn't do it someone else would have

  Link to this forum: Marchall Petain

  Report message4

• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Mark (U2073932) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006

  Had some very sensible policies at Verdun. Using the tourniquet system where he rotated 2/3 of the army through verdun. This whether he meant it or not led to Verdun becoming a truly national struggle.
  
  The Germans on the other kept piling the battered 5th army in, which led to a lowering of morale and fighting effectiveness.
  
  Petain also believed in le feu tue (fire power kills). Every bit of land that was lost, was recaptured using overwhelming artillery fire (eventually), and not simply throwing men against machine guns.
  
  

  Link to this forum: Marchall Petain

  Report message5

• Message 6

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006

  Re: Message 3.
  
  Eliza,
  
  Pétain as I read it turned out to be a Fascist during the Vichy regime. He was already an ultra-right personality before 1940. He was perhaps not as an elderly so reponsable for his deeds, but nevertheless supported firmly the Vichy regime, and thought in his not too clear vision that he could act without the Germans for an ultra-right fascist France, à la Française.
  
  That Fascist France was told that it needed a "RΓ©volution Nationale" (national revolution) in which "Travail, Famille, Patrie" (work, family, (native) country) had replaced: LibertΓ©, Γ©galitΓ©, fraternitΓ©.
  
  The youth was invited to join "les chantiers de la jeunesse" (the yards of the youth) (I read some documentaries about youth escaping from the camps and adding to the resistance movement as well trained ones later in the war).
  
  In fact Vichy France was an autoritarian, corporatist, anti-semitic, anti-communist regime, in which PΓ©tain felt himself quite at ease and even fully propagated it.
  
  At the end with the take over of Vichy France end of 1942, he was even not counted enough for the Nazis to act as a figure head and was changed by Laval a much more "cooperative" Frenchman. And PΓ©tain became someone without any responsability used for ceremonies. He was condemned to the dead penalty after the war, but changed to life imprisonnement, where he died in 1951.
  
  Kind regards.

  Link to this forum: Marchall Petain

  Report message6

• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006

  Thanks for all the enlightenment! I hadn't realised Petain was actually imprisoned and formally disgraced in his lifetime.
  
  As for Laval - all I know is that Churchill said the guy was so slippery and untrustworthy he even had a name you could spell from either end!
  
  Eliza.

  Link to this forum: Marchall Petain

  Report message7

• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Mark (U2073932) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006

  Link to this forum: Marchall Petain

  Report message8

• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by Mark (U2073932) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006

  Whoops, should write something next time. Yes Petain was imprisoned but had his sentence reduced by De Gaulle because of his heroics at Verdun. Where De Gaulle actually fought and was wounded. Also to fight at Verdun was Rommel and Guderian.

  Link to this forum: Marchall Petain

  Report message9

• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006

  Quite the old boys' club then!
  Eliza

  Link to this forum: Marchall Petain

  Report message10

• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by Mark (U2073932) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006

  Oh yes. I'm sure those two German chaps learnt an awful lot about how to minimise losses and how to lead men.

  Link to this forum: Marchall Petain

  Report message11

Back to top