This discussion has been closed.
Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
HI - do you think Badahoz was the worst British army atrocity, or were there others that can claim that dire 'honour'?
How did the atrocity affect Wellington's relations with the Spanish populace, which he was at such pains - very sensibly - to keep 'onside' (unlike the stupid French)?
Thanks - Eliza.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
I've spelt it wrongly, haven't I? Looks completely wrong...
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
Badajoz isn't it?
Otherwise I do not really know about it other than what I saw on one of the Sharpe episodes years ago!
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
I don't really know, I know Wellington found the behaviour of his army often very disgusting.
So when did the British Army become the more well behaved force of the two world wars?
(Sorry to hijack your thread Elizabeth)
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
Probably when the soldiers were treated better! Can't quite remember when they stopped flogging them, but I think it was quite late in the Victorian days. After l870 they got commissioned by officers who couldn't buy their commissions, which might have helped.
But I think Badajoz (is that really how you spell it - it just seems wrong!) was exceptional, certainly for the Peninsular war, and Wellington was horrified (Picton apparently asked him what he was so upset about...!), but I was wondering just how one-off it was?
Eliza.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 5.
Posted by SerjeantWildgoose - Bandmaster of Noel Conroy's 1-Shot Showband (U3028801) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
Badajoz it is. It was one of the many sieges of Wellington's war in the Iberian Peninsula. Siege warfare was a complex business in the 19th Century, involving much digging in order to get artillery batteries close enough to the wall to make a breech. Once this stage had been reached, the position of the defenders was usually untenable and it was normal practice at this point for the defenders to surrender. This spared both sides the casualties that would be lost in a fight to what could only be an inevitable victory for the attacker.
Sadly the war in Spain was a particularly bitter one and often the besieging army would have to storm the walls even after a successful breech had been made. This was the case at the walled city of Badajoz, where the civilian population had been largely trapped inside throughout.
When the British finally managed to break in to the city, many soldiers went on a 3-day rampage of murder, rape and theft, much of it drink fueled. Some even murdered their own officers who attempted to stem their excesses.
Sadly Badajoz is not a unique episode in the histroy of British Arms. Amritsar (1919) is probably the most infamous example of atrocity, when General Dyer ordered British troops to fire on Sikh protesters, killing about 380 and wounding well over 1500 more. Churchill called this 'an extraordinary event, a monstrous event, an event which stands in singular and sinister isolation.' Sadly, while undoubtedly monstrous it was neither extraordinary nor standing in singular and sinsiter isolation.
15 years earlier at Chumi Shengo, British soldiers under Colonel Younghusband disarmed and then massacred half of a small Tibetan army.
Bloody Sunday (1920) saw British soldiers open fire on a football crowd in Dublin following the killing of 14 British Agents by Michael Collins' IRA. Controversy continues to rage over killings on another Bloody Sunday in Derry in 1972.
I am a British soldier and fiercely proud to be one. But there are episodes in our history of which we can have nothing but shame.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
Eliza there was a convention at the time that a fortress or a walled city was given the opportunity to surrender. The forces inside would probably have to give up their arms but would be allowed to return to their lines. (Not pleasant wih the guerillas.)
If however the defenders forced the attackers to attack then they would undoubtably lose men and therefore would receive no quarter later.
Napoleon stated that every fort should receive at least one assault before surrendering. However that would have meant the besiegers would have lost men anyway.
Wellington in looking back did say, that if he had put the garrison of cuiadad rodrigo to the sword he would have saved the flower of his army at badajoz.
The idea that the Spanish would hate the brits for slaughtering their people, well at the end of the day, we paid for the local food, paid for their arms, and were not trying to put someone on their throne.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
you would think it would make sense to not judge peoples of other era's by our ethical standards. i dont judge the crusaders by modern standards, or the grande armee of naopleon, as they are of different ages of the world.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
You could also argue that the transfer in 1945 to the Sovjet army of large numbers of German, Russian and other East-european soldiers who surrendered to the British , was a (passive) atrocity.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 9.
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
thats the lienz cossacks isnt it? (james bond taught me something!)
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
Elizabeth
What about:-
William I's brutal "Harrying of the North" in early 1070?
The Crusader's storming of Jerusalem in 1099, slaying c.30-40,000 muslims?
Edward I's terrible slaughter of c.17,000 civilians and traders(men, women & kids)at Berwick in 1296?
Cromwell's storming of the Catholic-defended(English & Irish) town of Drogheda in 1649(then Wexford)?
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
you would think it would make sense to not judge peoples of other era's by our ethical standards. i dont judge the crusaders by modern standards, or the grande armee of naopleon, as they are of different ages of the world. Β
Plus, the horrors those troops had been put through, and losing all those friends it can only be expected they would take revenge. Plus their task at the main breach was impossible as the breach was deemed impossible even in daylight.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Friday, 10th February 2006
Any siege were the attacking force is obliged to storm the walls has a tendancy to turn nasty. I cant think of case were a british army in the field has behaved badly. Although Im prepared to be proved wrong.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
Agincourt? Slaughtering all those prisoners so they didn't loot the baggage train?
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 14.
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 10th February 2006
redcoat, reply to #7,
Excellent points, although I feel that Wellington may have been having a bit of a rant when he wrote about the garrison at Ciudad Rodrigo.
To add, Badajoz was not a British affair, but as is normal when Britain fights in Europe an Allied effort. Last time I did the figures (and admittedly for Salamanca) approximately 40% of the army was Portugese. Anglocentric accounts tend to ignore the Portugese contribution.
Badajoz had been besieged three times before, the army was under the correct impression that the citizens of Badajoz were hostile to them.
As others have mentioned, the sacking of a city / town after a siege was not an uncommon practice. It happened at Ciudad Rodrigo as an example.
Badajoz stands out probably because of the length of time it took for the provosts and officers to regain control, the casualties suffered during the assault (nearly 5,000) and the treatment of the civilian population.
Eliza, you may like to know that out of Badajoz did come one of the romances of the 19C. Captain Harry Smith 95th Rifles (later Sir Harry Smith) saved a Spanish girl from the sacking of the city and married her. The town of Laysmith in South Africa is named after her. (The fact that he was 25 and she was 14 doesn't seem to have raised an eyebrow, interesting reflection on judging people by the standards of their time?).
As to the worst "atrocity" well, the British army in the aftermath of the Indian Mutiny wasn't at its most forgiving, the British and Canadian Armies in WW2 seem to have had a reluctance to take prisoners from 12 SS (Hitler Jugend), (i.e. although prisoners were taken, few seem to have made it to the rear, XIVth army facing the Japanese in Burma did not follow the "rules". In all these cases it was a response to events and highly understandable (in my view).
Cheers AA.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
AA,
good points, I assume you know of Captain Harry Smith/Ladysmith from Sharpes' exploits in Sharpe's Company.
Also talking of British troops behaving badly, although this case is understandable.
Didn't british troops kill german guards or clerical staff when they liberated Bergen-Belsen concentration camp in 1945
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 16.
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 10th February 2006
redcoat, thank you,
In answer no, I first came across Sir Harry Smith in my readings about the Boer and Sikh wars, I then worked backwards to his time in the Peninsula. (I claim no more than a superficial knowledge of the Napoleonic era).
Regarding the liberation of Bergen Belsen I've never heard of any guards or staff being killed when the troops arrived. Most (if not all) had fled prior to the arrival of the British. (I wonder why!!!). I suspect that this is a Hollywood myth where the outraged officer pulls out his trusted Webley to execute the German CO who is demanding he be accorded his rights under the Geneva Convention.
Cheers AA.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 15.
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 10th February 2006
The town of Laysmith in South Africa is named after her.Β
Ladysmith, I meant Ladysmith, what a typo!!! Thats the last time I let Damien the Cat proof read my posts!
Cheers AA.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
re message 11 - Ironaxe
"The Crusader's storming of Jerusalem in 1099, slaying c.30-40,000 muslims?"
Two points, Iron,
First: The Crusaders were not from any one nationality, so you can't quite attribute it to the English Army alone!
Second: Among the c.30-40,000 victims were quite a few resident Jews, and Christians from various groups such as Armenians, Assyrians, Kopts etc., they just didn't happen to look like the Crusaders or speak any language known to them, so propably on principle they were slaughtered.
AA,
I seem to have read a story of Captain Harry Smith, and how he came to marry his wife, Juana , you say?
But why did she come to give her name to a South African town - and when?
Was Sir Harry stationed there, and in what capacity?
Eliza this thread seems to spread out in different ways, can you still weave it into a pattern?
Cheers
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
Harry Smith according to Bernard Cornwell was made Governor of South Africa.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
His wife Juana gave her name to Ladysmith in KwaZulu-Natal. Harrismith in the Free State was named after Smith himself.
more nfo from Wikipedia
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 20.
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 10th February 2006
redcoat,
Cornwell is a decent historical fiction writer who is good enough never to get caught out in a lie. It's what he doesn't say that needs to be "found out".
I digress, Sir Harry Smith was Governor of the Cape of Good Hope (or as it was to become the Natal) 1847 - 1850. At the time there was no "South Africa" as we know it today.
Cheers AA.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 19.
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 10th February 2006
Nielsen,
Juana Maria de los Dolores de Leon (1798 - 1872).
I should check my facts, but from memory, as redcoat has pointed out Sir Harry was the Governor and seems to have been one of the few Britons who made a favouable impression on the Dutch / German / French settlers, (or the Boers as they are collectively known). His wife also seems to have been a truly remarkable woman, hence the honour.
Cheers AA.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 10th February 2006
Eliza, reply to #1 (in a Paul Ryckier stylee),
I got sidetracked and forgot to mention the sacking of the Summer Palace in 1860 by British (and French) troops under the orders of Elgin (the son of the marbles bloke).
No-one really knows what was destroyed, however a thorough job was done. As far as I know it is still remembered by the Chinese as an act of utter barbarianism. (Although this from a people who had the Board of Punishments and the original Death by a Thousand Cuts).
Cheers AA.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 14.
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Friday, 10th February 2006
Agincourt? Slaughtering all those prisoners so they didn't loot the baggage train?Β
that was a neccesity
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
Yes, but still killing unarmed men who had surrendered
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 26.
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Friday, 10th February 2006
it was either kill those few hundred men, or have an army destroyed, i agree that it was nasty, but it was the lesser of two evils
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
Redcoat and AA,
Thank you for the info on Harry and Juana Smith, I wasn't aware that he'd written something on them (I'm politely asking for the title!) it's interesting to be pointed in the right direction, when you (I) only half remember something!
And AA in your mess to Eliza, you write:
"I got sidetracked and forgot to mention the sacking of the Summer Palace in 1860 by British (and French) troops under the orders of Elgin (the son of the marbles bloke)."
Was that Elgin the one who sold the marbles to the nation - and could you thus say, that he lost his marbles?
Sorry, I simply couldn't resist though
Cheers
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 28.
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 10th February 2006
Nielsen,
Sharpes Enemy is the book, I think!!
Cheers AA., I think!!!
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
AA
Ta, I may have to go though the books again, I think!
See you in t'Bar
Cheers, Nielsen
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
The summary execution of some of the remaining guards and administrators without trial at Bergen Belson did take place. Its even mentioned in the World at War.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 31.
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 10th February 2006
lolbeeble,
If it was mentioned on the World at War, then it must be true.
I don't have an axe to grind over this. I can believe it or not. Either way, I think that the British Army behaved with total propriety.
Cheers AA.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
Nielsen,
Sharpes Enemy is the book, I think!!
Cheers AA., I think!!!Β
No, definitely Sharpe's compan the storming of Badajoz. Sharpe's enemy sees Sharpe pitted against Hakeswill in the Gateway of God over Xmas 1812
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 33.
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 10th February 2006
redcoat,
You are correct, sorry, I did get a little confused. (A little, well quite a bit).
Head down in shame AA.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
Dunno AA, they seem to have been the lucky ones. The rest were forced to dispose of the bodies heaped up here and there that were growing by the day without protective gloves. Due to the fact that food shortages were universal many of them succumbed to the effects of Typhus. Apparently my Grandad was then a tour guide showing locals from the surrounding area just what had been going on in the camp.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
Hi,
The Gibbet Rath massacre.
Cheers.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Sunday, 12th February 2006
How did the atrocity affect Wellington's relations with the Spanish populace, which he was at such pains - very sensibly - to keep 'onside' (unlike the stupid French)?
Thanks - Eliza.Β
Eliza,
Never answered this one. Well, the citizens of Badajoz didn't vote the Anglo-Portugese Army into the Top Ten of occupying armies, but, as I've already said they don't appear to have been well disposed towards them anyway.
The rest of the Spanish population don't appear to have taken Badajoz to heart, although I must confess I haven't read many Spanish histories of the Peninsula War.
Cheers AA.
Link to this forum: Badahoz - was this the worst British army atrocity?
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or Β to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Β© 2014 The Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.