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why did Hitler turn down requests for winter clothing in Russia?

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by superfern (U3137729) on Saturday, 4th February 2006

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• Message 2

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  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Saturday, 4th February 2006

  Because in Hitlers own fantasy world the war against Russia would have been won by the winter.
  
  To admit otherwise would have been defeatism, a lack of proper National Socialism.
  
  Cheers AA.

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  Posted by superfern (U3137729) on Sunday, 5th February 2006

  Thanks for your reply. I accept hat your saying but he would have saved lives in the winter of 1940 if he had sent the goods - could the German state perhaps not afford to send the clothing required to make a difference?

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  Posted by superfern (U3137729) on Sunday, 5th February 2006

  sorry- mistake- the above should say winter of 1941 !

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• Message 5

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  Posted by Alastair (U3142940) on Sunday, 5th February 2006

  I do not think it was as much they couldn't afford the expense, I believe it was to do with timing. The Original plan was that Germany would invade Russia in the spring, and since Russia was not prepared Hitler thought it would be an easy victory. However, for a reason which I can't remember, (something to do with the defeat at the Battle of Britain), the invasion was put off until late summer. This allowed the Russians more time to re-arm, and it also gave the Germans a much shorter time limit before the winter came in. So if Germany had invaded Russia in the spring as originally planned, then the war would not have gone on into the winter, and so the supplies for winter would not have been needed.

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  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Sunday, 5th February 2006

  Alastair7,
  
  You are quite correct in saying that Operation Barbarossa was postponed by three weeks. Some have claimed this was because of the transfer of troops from the Russian front to support the Italians in their attack on Greece. Others say that the weather postponed the attack on Russia and the diversion in Greece did not impede the attack on Russia.
  
  In any event, in contrast to the supposed German efficiency there were limited supplies of winter equipment to send to the fronts. Read Speer for a vivid description of the chaos of supply the Germans had, or indeed the diaries of the German Regiments.
  
  It wasn't that the Germans couldn't have made the neccesary equipment, it was they didn't. Why as to that, well, I'll refer you to the fantasy world Hitler lived in that was propped up by his advisors and subordinates.
  
  Cheers AA.

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• Message 7

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  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 6th February 2006

  I do not think it was as much they couldn't afford the expense, I believe it was to do with timing. The Original plan was that Germany would invade Russia in the spring, and since Russia was not prepared Hitler thought it would be an easy victory. However, for a reason which I can't remember, (something to do with the defeat at the Battle of Britain), the invasion was put off until late summer. This allowed the Russians more time to re-arm, and it also gave the Germans a much shorter time limit before the winter came in. So if Germany had invaded Russia in the spring as originally planned, then the war would not have gone on into the winter, and so the supplies for winter would not have been needed.Β 
  
  Hi Alistair,
  
  Barbarossa was delayed as Hitler decided to invade the Balkans (in support of Mussolini's farce of an army!). The Italians attacked Greece and basically got their butts kicked, so Hitler sent in the Wehrmacht to end the fighting there. This campaign ended quickly, but the two months or so it took delayed Barbarossa, and since the Nazis came within sight of Moscow before the Russians (aided by "General Winter") pushed them back. Had Barbarossa been a month earlier, then maybe Moscow would have fallen.
  
  Cheers
  

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• Message 8

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  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 6th February 2006

  Oops sorry AA!!!
  
  Didn't read your reply, and you'd beaten me to it!
  
  

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• Message 9

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  Posted by Alastair (U3142940) on Monday, 6th February 2006

  Thank you for correcting me. I always thought it was also something to do with the defeat after the Battle of Britain and the loss of much of the german airforce, well perhaps it was a combination of many things.
  
  The question is though, if Moscow had fallen would it really have made all the difference? Napoleon captured Moscow, and if Stalin was in the same frame of mind as the Tsars he would have probably set fire to the city, which ultimately lead to the defeat of Napoleon. Russia is such a massive country I don't think it could ever really be defeated. But still, I'm getting off topic now!

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• Message 10

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  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Monday, 6th February 2006

  Alastair7,
  
  No problem, the losses the Germans suffered during the Battle of Britain certainly didn't help when they came to launch opeartion Barbarossa, or the number of personnel they had to keep on Anti aircraft duties in Germany to try to keep bomber Command at bay.
  
  Anyway, Moscow, difficult to say, certainly it would have made more sense in my view to put the main German effort (throughout) into capturing Moscow. My reasons are that if you look at a 1941 rail map of Russia all the main railway lines run into and out of Moscow. The road network is very similiar. So capture Moscow and you capture a communications hub.
  
  Also, Moscow was the nerve centre for the Communist Party apparatus and it appears to have been highly centralised. Capture this and you remove one of the means of control Stalin had over the Russian people. Finally, it is a prestige symbol to capture the capital, maybe not so much of a gain in morale for the Germans as a loss of morale amongst the Russians.
  
  If the Germans had a more forward thinking policy about how they were going to treat the Ukranians and Russians in the areas they'd conquered thenm the capture of Moscow may have made a big difference, proof that Stalins reign was nearing an end. However they didn't so, on balance, although life would have been much harder for the Soviets with Moscow under German control still an eventual Soviet victory.
  
  Cheers AA.

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• Message 11

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  Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006

  You jention the Ukraine etc - I know zilch about the Russo-German war (apart from the fact that Hitler was an idiot to launch it) - but I feel that peoples like the Ukrainians, and the Finns, had maybe the hardest choice of any peoples - which side to take? Communists or Nazis. Was there any third option for such populations to take, I wonder?
  
  Eliza

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• Message 12

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  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006

  Eliza,
  
  The Finns were truely between a rock and a hard place. I can't think of a third option for them.
  
  The Ukranians were at the time part of the USSR and from most accounts not a happy part of the USSR. Some Ukranians did regard the Germans as liberators to begin with, some were ambivalent, some were against the Germans from the start.
  
  As the German occupation took hold, all except the most hardened anti Stalinists became anti German (and the large number of Ukranians who were serving with the German Army for a variety of other reasons, food being one). The "Russians" serving with the German Army were known as Hiwis, short for the German for "Willing Helper" and as I haven't go my reference books to hand can't remember the full german.
  
  For the Ukranians it became a choice between the devil who know and the devil you've come to know.
  
  One interview I've seen with a Ukranian partisan probably makes the point the best. He starts out fighting with the Germans against the Russians. Then as the realisation of the german occupation takes hold he becomes a partisan fighting for Stalin. Then, after much thought he becomes a partisan fighting both Germans and Soviets for an independent Ukraine.
  
  Cheers AA.
  (P.S. Manage to delete the threads?)

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• Message 13

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  Posted by Nielsen (U3014399) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006

  Further points that made the German advance difficult were the facts of the Molotow-Ribbentrop treaty which had granted the Soviets 600 kilometers of Polish land over which the Germans had to fight, and the German Panzers, splendid military tools as they were seen, were supported by mostly horse-drawn artillery and leg-carried infantry, greatly supported by the Luftwaffe.
  Besides it has been pointed out that railway lines were running towards Moscow - but there was -is? - a difference in the breath between lines, so the Germans couldn't automatically use Russian rail-lines for communications.
  Of the Finnish side, (admittedly I don't know much, but) they had been supported by Germans after gaining independence - they set up shop according to the Versailles Peace Treaty - and had fought a bloody Civil War between Whites and Reds, which the Whites won.
  During the 1930'es the Finnish government had turned more right-wing and 1939-40 they fought a border-war with the Soviet Union, which they took up again 1941 - 44 in coalition with the Nazi-Germans. Having been beaten militarily, the Finns made a separate peace with the Russians, after which they fought their German former-allies.
  The Germans in Finland then withdraw to northern Norway carrying out a scorched-earth policy behind them.

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