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Hitler and the Japanese

• Message 1.Ìý

  Posted by jane (U1272878) on Thursday, 2nd February 2006

  Hello all you knowledgeable people out there!Would anyone know how much information Hitler might have had about the Japanese threat?Might he have had ideas about forming a partnership with them?Best wishes everyone.

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Thursday, 2nd February 2006

  Jane,
  
  They did have a partnership.... initially an expansion of the pact of steel between Germany and Italy ; the Anti-Comintern Pact , later the Tripartite Treaty, The Three Power Pact or the "Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis". there was no threat that Hilter would care about, after the Great war Germany had no Asian interests, and Japan no European or African interests. The pact was later joined by countries such as Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria etc
  
  The co-operation was vast, politically and militarily. i.e. Look at the 'Cherry blossom' kamikaze plane - it's a manned V1, nothing more. There were exchanges of ideas on submarines, atomic weaponry, aircraft etc.
  

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by Brian_Dickson (U2941024) on Thursday, 2nd February 2006

  Hi Mani,
  
  Do you by any chance know how the Germans became allies with the Japanese?
  
  I was just wondering, as I recall the Japanese stole a German naval base during the first world war, Tsing Tao. Are you aware of this and how/if it was taken into account?
  
  Thanks

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by jane (U1272878) on Thursday, 2nd February 2006

  Thankyou. I dont think we ever heard much about this in our History lessons years ago. Is all this information new?Did the Americans know what they were up too?Best wishes.

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• Message 5

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  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Thursday, 2nd February 2006

  Jane,
  
  The Aliies cracked both the German Enigma code and the Japanese purple code, so would have been aware of a great deal.

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• Message 6

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  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Thursday, 2nd February 2006

  ... Also, there was nothing secretive about the alliance, so most would have known about it.

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• Message 7

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  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Thursday, 2nd February 2006

  Hi Brian,
  
  I don’t thin stole would be the right word… They were either given it as part of the settlement or invaded.
  I don’t think it mattered that the Japanese and Germans were on opposing sides during the great war – The Japanese were on our side yet were still enemies, in the second world war, as were the Italians…
  The Japan of the Great war and that of the second world war were completely different.
  
  What initially brought the countries together in the Anti-Comintern Pact was an alliance against communism. Both thought the Soviet Union as the most logical choice of enemy given their ideologies. It stated that neither of the countries would engage in political agreements with the SU, obviously this was latter broken by Hitler due to guarantee against a war on two fronts (At this point blitzkrieg was effectively untried so nobody could have predicted its efficiency)…. The second treaty between Japan and Germany as I’ve stated above was later signed once Hitler set his sights east.
  
  

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• Message 8

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  Posted by LittleHill (U3038272) on Friday, 3rd February 2006

  jane it hought u had enough Hello all you knowledgeable people out there!Would anyone know how much information Hitler might have had about the Japanese threat?Might he have had ideas about forming a partnership with them?Best wishes everyone.Ìý

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Miss_Europa (U3187774) on Friday, 10th February 2006

  Hi Mani,
  
  Do you by any chance know how the Germans became allies with the Japanese?
  
  I was just wondering, as I recall the Japanese stole a German naval base during the first world war, Tsing Tao. Are you aware of this and how/if it was taken into account?
  
  °Õ³ó²¹²Ô°ì²õÌý
  
  The Japanese played a largely intert role - as far as the allies were concerned - during WWI, using it as an opporunity to expand their empire. They therefore 'confiscated' German-leased territory in China, legally transferring the territories into their own empire under guise of acting for the Allied powers. I don't imagine this cause lasting resentment with Germany, particularly in light of the Versailles agreement and subsequent loss of more pressing European territory.

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• Message 10

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  Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Friday, 10th February 2006

  You could argue that Hitler's alliance with Japan in WWII arguably resulted in Germany's defeat as had Hitler not been allied with Japan he would not have had to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor in 1941.
  
  Thus with no US intervention in the European theatre the outcome may well have been significantly different As Germany would not have been fighting both the world's (then) super powers at the same time.
  
  There is a school of thought that would suggest had Hitler not been "obligated" to declare war on the US because of his alliance with Japan then the US would solely of concentrated on fighting the Japanese.
  
  After all niether Germany otr Japan was in a position to really benefit from the alliance as niether could meaningfully assist in the others campaigns.
  
  

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• Message 11

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  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 10th February 2006

  Little Enos,
  
  It's not just a school of thought, Hitler was not obliged to declare war on the USA at all. The terms of the pact obliged him to declare war on anyone who attacked Japan, IF, Japan was not the agressor. At least that is what Ribbentrop claims to have told Hitler.(Nuremberg testimony of Ribbentrop). The terms of the treaty are precise, there was no legal obligation for Germany to come to the aid of Japan.
  
  Hitler had given oral promises to Matsuoka and Ribbentrop had made a similiar oral promise to Oshima that Germany would declare war on the USA if Japan went to war with them. However the Japanese, having studied Hitlers record of promises were far from convinced that it would happen.
  
  Not even the Japanese claim that the USA was the agressor in WW2, FDR pointed out that history would record who fired the first shot. (Although technically the USA fired the first shot).
  
  Cheers AA.

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by Sabre-Wulf (U2142937) on Friday, 10th February 2006

  
  After all niether Germany otr Japan was in a position to really benefit from the alliance as niether could meaningfully assist in the others campaigns.
  
  Ìý
  
  Surely by dividing the USAs attention between two fronts they both benefited?

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 10th February 2006

  Hi Mani,
  
  Do you by any chance know how the Germans became allies with the Japanese?
  
  I was just wondering, as I recall the Japanese stole a German naval base during the first world war, Tsing Tao. Are you aware of this and how/if it was taken into account?
  
  °Õ³ó²¹²Ô°ì²õÌý
  
  Brian, the quick short answer is that they became allies because both countries had a common enemy, the USSR. The Tripartite pact in fact gave Japan a lot more than Germany got out of it. The pact was signed on 27th September 1940 in Berlin (or to be flash the 27th day of the ninth month of Showa as the Japanese would have described it).
  
  Further to my previous post, please note the date Enos, if the terms of the pact meant Germany was "obliged" to declare war on the USA wouldn't it have meant Japan was "obliged" to declare war on the USSR in June 1941? Check the history books, Japan never declared war on the USSR in the 1940s.
  
  WW1 in the Far East isn't an area I'm particularly familiar with I'm afraid. All I know is that Japan was at war with Germany in WW1 and at the divvy up at the end got the German possessions in the Far East. As these were of very little value economically and politically in comparison with the areas ceded in Europe (and Africa) it seems to have had little effect the on German outlook.
  
  Cheers AA.

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• Message 14

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Friday, 10th February 2006

  I would disagree,
  
  Hypothetically if the US had no active combatants in the European theatre, then effectively Germany would of had one front against the Russians which could of changed the whole outcome of the war as a German victory would of been possible. I think we (UK) would of possibly had to sue for peace as we would be in a "stalemate" with Germany, i.e. we were probably save from invasion after 1940, but there was no way we could actively take the fight to Germany on the western front with no US assistance.
  
  After all Hitler didn't really want the war with the UK and could arguably have concentrated on fighting the Russians while securing his Western European borders.
  
  

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• Message 15

  , in reply to message 14.

  Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Friday, 10th February 2006

  Arnald,
  
  I agree Hitler probably didnt "have" to declare war on the US after Pearl, but his own arrogance probably lead him to it!
  
  Also he mayt well have wanted to show willing towards the Japanese but whatever the reason that decision effectively lost Germany the war!
  
  With regard to Japan and the USSR they actually had a non-aggression pact up until 1945 by my understanding.

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• Message 16

  , in reply to message 15.

  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Friday, 10th February 2006

  Arnald,
  
  I agree Hitler probably didnt "have" to declare war on the US after Pearl, but his own arrogance probably lead him to it! Ìý
  
  Thanks, and agreed, although I may subsitute "madness" for "arrogance".
  
  Also he mayt well have wanted to show willing towards the Japanese but whatever the reason that decision effectively lost Germany the war! Ìý
  
  Agreed.
  
  With regard to Japan and the USSR they actually had a non-aggression pact up until 1945 by my understanding.Ìý
  
  Yep, my understanding.
  
  Cheers AA.

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