Wars and ConflictsÌý permalink
Why is everyone so worried?
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by missNatalie (U1755161) on Monday, 30th January 2006
Why is everyone worried about Hamas winning the Palestinian elections ? It's the people's choice. You give them democracy and they choose whoever they want.
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Message 2
Posted by Nick-Rowan (U2517576) on Monday, 30th January 2006
Yes I agree.And the israelis need some opposition. Hey, they wont deal with anyone, who wants the destruction of Israel.Hueh! We are talking about the worlds 4 th biggets nuclear power (the size of 2 times that of Cyprus) with 200 nuclear bombs being afraid of a bunch of people armed with AK-47!!
How stupid do they think we are? Well a lot of us are apparently, since they get away with this kind of propaganda every now and then - just check with yourself: You fell for it, until I spelled it out to you. -
Message 3
Posted by Nick-Rowan (U2517576) on Monday, 30th January 2006
The only thing the israelis have respect for is power, and opposition and people being every bit as tough as themselves. That the way to deal with these people.
I think that Hamas should demand Arab majorityrule, which will come about by itself when all refugees, now scattered acrosse the world, are allowed home along with their descendants. Since many jews will chose to leace in such a situation, the majority will come about all by itself.
As a compromital result they could as minimum get the israelis to retreat to the green line, where they can build all the walls they want.
All in all the palestinians need a lot more people on the public relation front. People who can tell their side of the story to a global audience largely unaware of this side of the story. But since this side is the righteous one, and the suffering in the last 58 years has been on such a scale, the palestinians have every chance as getting their story perceived as the most gripping, and the one that deserves immidiate attention. And they should play on the big mistake it was to create Israel, and how it is never too late to correct mistakes, indeed it would be a bigger mistake to go on etc. -
Message 4
Posted by LittleHill (U3038272) on Monday, 30th January 2006
Shut up
Palastian are defending their country, they do not want to use dstructive weapons agianst Juraslam even if their Enemies are in there, same goes to Mecca in Suadi Arabia.
Our God tolds us not shed blood in holy places. but some people are out of thier mind.
The palastanians were minding thier own busniess when the french and British sighned the Balfour Treaty which was to divied the middle East and Give a place to the Jews( i hope i am not being racist ).
What i am thinking is why did they divide a small country and not a big one like france or West Germany after the Second world War?
Doc Yes I agree.And the israelis need some opposition. Hey, they wont deal with anyone, who wants the destruction of Israel.Hueh! We are talking about the worlds 4 th biggets nuclear power (the size of 2 times that of Cyprus) with 200 nuclear bombs being afraid of a bunch of people armed with AK-47!!
How stupid do they think we are? Well a lot of us are apparently, since they get away with this kind of propaganda every now and then - just check with yourself: You fell for it, until I spelled it out to you.Ìý -
Message 5
Posted by Nick-Rowan (U2517576) on Monday, 30th January 2006
I mean power and strenght used at the negociating table,- and I think this is why Hamas got elected - Fatah having been too weak, that every time and GAIN HAVE SOLD OUT OF palestinian interests
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Message 6
Posted by LittleHill (U3038272) on Monday, 30th January 2006
Nick
Read what I said or Written.
Doc -
Message 7
Posted by Nick-Rowan (U2517576) on Monday, 30th January 2006
Doc I was talking about the power and clout that cannot be ignored and that israelis have respect for. They have just emerged of 4 years of consecutive recession, and have one quarter of its people living below the poverty line. They are anxious to get a settlement.
The palestinians now have little to loose, and can better sustain a war of attrition. Also the wider world cannot stand a re-emergence of the situation where palestinian fighters make terror all over the world, as they did from 1967 to 1987, the worse terorist campaign the world have ever seen, outdwarfing the current hype about terror-wars and the like.
All together the best solution would be arab majority rule in the whole of Palestine, and the palestinians should propose this and allow it to gradually sink in in the minds of the people of the world.
The existence of the worlds only colony in arab middle east is simply untenable and have allready costed dearly, and could do so again.
It has costed 4 wars, invasion into libanon,masscres at Sabra and Chatilla with a death toll half of that at the WTC on 9/11, a terrorcampaign from 1967-87 unprecedented in scope when the palestinian leadership had to flee the advancing israelis on the west bank in june 1967, and again had to flee the east bank from the army of King Hussein in september of 1970 and finally had to flee Libanon in 1983,2 intifadas (1987-93 and 2000-) with the planned annexation of East Jerusalem likely to produce a third.
Lastly it was responsible for 9/11 as well as the Iraq war.
Finally it was responsible for the worst economic setback since the 30'ties, when the arabs turned the tap in 1973 following unanimous western support for Israel in the octoberwar that year. This brought about a quadroubling of prices as well as salaries and inflation, followed by unprecedented borrowing by the worlds governmenst to counter its effects. Britain was close to defaulting on its debts and being put under administration by the IMF as a result. Many governmenst still have loans from that time, albeit often in a refinanced form. -
Message 8
Posted by LittleHill (U3038272) on Monday, 30th January 2006
The most biggist Terrirost groops are Israel and Iraq, why did they invade Palestain anyway, As i said why did they chose a small country and not a big one.
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Message 9
Posted by LittleHill (U3038272) on Monday, 30th January 2006
The most biggist Terrirost groops are Israel and Iraq, why did they invade Palestain anyway, As i said why did they chose a small country and not a big one.
u r wrong when u said they can fight a war of attrition like WW1 they haven't got enough men, except that Syria might Help. -
Message 10
Posted by Nick-Rowan (U2517576) on Monday, 30th January 2006
Doc I need to tell you I am danish, and indeed danish goods are being boycotted all over the arb world right now. dont you think this is unfair when I am such a nice guy?
Indeed I have the whole day , and in fact since december, but particularly today been battering the danish PM on public boards, for his unflexibility, when indeed he could have shelvesd this whole busines by excusing for the paper have huted the feelings of som many muslims. But this particulat PM is so stubborn and he never admits mistakes. I am doing my best to let him eat humble pie, and admit that he has made a mistake, and make him excuse. -
Message 11
Posted by Slimdaddy101 (U2553470) on Monday, 30th January 2006
I agree with you the Palastinians have had THEIR election and made THEIR choice. It is not up to anyone else to choose. Perhaps their is some concern however about dealing with an organisation like Hamas who (up until now at least) are a terrorist organisation commited to the destruction of Israel. I think that is why some in the US, Germany, the UK and the likes have expressed their disapproval.
It will be interesting to see how this develops. It seems to me at least to be a bit unfair that many statemen/women are already demanding Hamas to cease to call for the destruction of the state of Israel or to unilateraly cease all forms of terrorism. These things are achieved with sitting around the table and negotiating. This is what happened in Northern Ireland. It would have been preposterous to expect the IRA to disarm prior to talks, else they have no barganing chips. To my mind at least it seems only fair to give Hamas a chance to prove their commitment to the democratic process. After all it is this very process that has given them this fantastic oppertunity. -
Message 12
Posted by Buckskinz (U3036516) on Monday, 30th January 2006
Why is everyone worried about Hamas winning the Palestinian elections ? It's the people's choice. You give them democracy and they choose whoever they want. Ìý
Hi Natalie,
The only people that should be worried are the Palestinians. You can be sure that all western aid is now a thing of the past. I hope they’re not waiting on Arab countries to help out. That track record has been demonstrated for years. In their defense I can only say they had little choice, and that is perhaps the saddest thing of all. So now they have elected a terrorist group for their leaders. In other words they are showing their true colors. The peace process for what it was worth is dead and buried. We know what the opposite of peace is.
Cheers, Matt. -
Message 13
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Monday, 30th January 2006
Matt
I'm not too sure about all that you know. When groups used to being the opposition find themselves in power they quite quickly find themselves mired in the same way that the "government" they have evicted was.
Now Hamas are not an organistion I would chose to willingly do business with, their track record to date is not impresive.
What is impresive have been their attempts to get health care and education to the slums of Gaza.
In the same way that the IRA and Sein Fein have been co-opted by being involved with government so too might Hamas. The only problem is that such a thing takes time, and time is one thing in the ME that is always in short supply.
Will the EU, USA and Israel give Hamas enough time and rope in which to either hang themselves or prove us all wrong? The EU I can see giving them time (if only to annoy Washington). The USA (under Bush) I cannot see giving Hamas much leeway (go on Bush, prove me wrong for once).
Israel is the real unknown. With an election and an unstable political base at the momemnt a lot will depend on which direction the electorate jumps and puts into the Knesset.
Its a bugger but it is really one which we will have to sit back and wait. Call me an optimist but I hold some hope that Hamas will be better for being in government than maintaining the Fatah hegemony -
Message 14
Posted by LittleHill (U3038272) on Monday, 30th January 2006
Nick-Rowan
i need to tell you that i am arabic, but my view is easy,i am repeating it why didnt they chose another country, My question is not being answered i think you are trying to avoid it, it is obvious that they want the arabic and muslim world seperated, Revenge for the crusades, although it has been going on for Ages, My country has been ruled from 1516-1912 by Ottomans, 1912-1943,Italy,1943-1945,Allied occupation,1945-1969,Italy again,now it is giving Nuclear weapons to U.S.A yo use on Arabics or muslims.
See my point.
Cheers Doc. Doc I need to tell you I am danish, and indeed danish goods are being boycotted all over the arb world right now. dont you think this is unfair when I am such a nice guy?
Indeed I have the whole day , and in fact since december, but particularly today been battering the danish PM on public boards, for his unflexibility, when indeed he could have shelvesd this whole busines by excusing for the paper have huted the feelings of som many muslims. But this particulat PM is so stubborn and he never admits mistakes. I am doing my best to let him eat humble pie, and admit that he has made a mistake, and make him excuse.Ìý -
Message 15
Posted by Slimdaddy101 (U2553470) on Monday, 30th January 2006
I tend to agree with you Matt. Though the US cannot give aid to Hamas, it would break a number of state dept and local laws.
I think its a bit too early for all the doom-mongering. They won the election and at least deserve a chance to prove their worth. If all else fails, Israel and the US could refuse to deal with them as was done with the late Arafat. -
Message 16
Posted by Slimdaddy101 (U2553470) on Monday, 30th January 2006
In fact I was agreeing with Richie and not you Matt, sorry. I don't agree with you at all.
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Message 17
Posted by LittleHill (U3038272) on Monday, 30th January 2006
Yeah,Yeah.
Local laws my a**e, They placed Israel in Palastine to have a fight with the locals to disrupt the Middle Eastern Islamic Life,THey just want to get involved in Everything. <quote user='slimdaddy101' userid='2553470'>I tend to agree with you Matt. Though the US cannot give aid to Hamas, it would break a number of state dept and local laws.
I think its a bit too early for all the doom-mongering. They won the election and at least deserve a chance to prove their worth. If all else fails, Israel and the US could refuse to deal with them as was done with the late Arafat.
Doc50Cent -
Message 18
Posted by LittleHill (U3038272) on Monday, 30th January 2006
slimdaddy make your mind up!!!!!
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Message 19
Posted by Buckskinz (U3036516) on Monday, 30th January 2006
Slim, Rich,
I sincerely hope you are both right, and that I am wrong.
Cheers. -
Message 20
Posted by LittleHill (U3038272) on Monday, 30th January 2006
Hope he isn't Buckskinz.
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Message 21
Posted by gooserss (U1983611) on Tuesday, 31st January 2006
This is a good topic to help you vent all your anti jewish sentiment Nick.
Didnt the palestinians try to assassinate king Hussein and therefore produce a coup against that country ?
I read that lots of palestinians were told by their people to leave their homes in 1947 ? so the arab armies could have a clear run at the jews. When the jews won, they were unable to return home. Does this seem wrong ?
Can i claim my family home in Dublin that was abandoned during partician ?
They have every right to vote for who they want. At some time hamas and isreal must talk to eachother. However they must call a ceasefire, and agree that they do not want the violent overthrow of isreal. All of this was agreed by sinn fein before the main talks and deals with the uk govt.
The fact that they are voting for a rabid fundamentalist group saddens me. Sinn fein did not become the biggest nationalist party until thay had renounced violence, apologised to victims and agreed on a course for decommisioning. Like to see hamas try this. -
Message 22
Posted by Scottish Librarian (U1772828) on Tuesday, 31st January 2006
Why is everyone worried about Hamas winning the Palestinian elections ? It's the people's choice. You give them democracy and they choose whoever they want. Ìý
An interesting point of view which i've already heard from several people now. Just playing Devil's advocate but i don't recall anyone complaining when Jorg Heider was forced out of office in Austria due to international pressure.
I suspect that the same anti-Israeli, leftie, "right-on" folks who are now saying that peole are free to choose whoever they want are the same ones screaming for Heider's removal.
Paul
p.s. I am no fan of Jorg Heider, just making a point. -
Message 23
Posted by LittleHill (U3038272) on Tuesday, 31st January 2006
Gorman1
U.S.A only made a new country in the Middle East where they could control the huge producings oil countries like Kuwait.
And it worked, well not quite, they are going to kill all the palastanains so they're way would be clear to Syria maybe, who might be next.
Doc -
Message 24
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Tuesday, 31st January 2006
Gorman1
U.S.A only made a new country in the Middle East where they could control the huge producings oil countries like Kuwait.
And it worked, well not quite, they are going to kill all the palastanains so they're way would be clear to Syria maybe, who might be next.
Doc
Ìý
paranoia much???
Kuwait was a British Protectorate as well thankyou very much (can't go blaming the Yanks for everything)
And the Arabs have done a good job of killing the Palestinians since 1947.
Where have all these Nazi and anti-Jewish trolls suddenly come from?? Has someone dug up some mushroom colony under a poisen oak somewhere??? -
Message 25
Posted by Slimdaddy101 (U2553470) on Tuesday, 31st January 2006
Where have all these Nazi and anti-Jewish trolls suddenly come from?? Has someone dug up some mushroom colony under a poisen oak somewhere???</quote>
Now that is a question worthy of a thread all of its own. -
Message 26
Posted by LittleHill (U3038272) on Wednesday, 1st February 2006
Kuwait doesnt need a protecter, Britian only "protects" Kuwait for the supply of oil.
The oil was for tanks and airoplanes to attack arabic nieghbours to Kuwait.
doc -
Message 27
Posted by DrkKtn6851746 (U2746042) on Wednesday, 1st February 2006
Kuwait doesnt need a protecter, Britian only "protects" Kuwait for the supply of oil.
The oil was for tanks and airoplanes to attack arabic nieghbours to Kuwait.
docÌý
Doc, the war to liberate Kuwait may have been before you were born, but it was a real event, believe me. -
Message 28
Posted by kirkanos (U2737879) on Wednesday, 1st February 2006
My only feeling on this is that if we go back to the setting up of Fatah in 57 by Arafat then there are some paralells. Fatah started out with an amrmed struggle against the destruction of Israel this is simalar to the aims of Hammas. I believe that Hammas in the same way as Fatah did will eventually agree to the two state solution and recognize Israel. This will take time and I fear that Israeli Palistinian realtion we be more simalar to that of the 80's then anything post oslo. So its a bit of a step back.
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Message 29
Posted by peepys (U2381451) on Wednesday, 1st February 2006
anti-semitism in europe which still exists today resulted in the state of israel being created as a homeland for the jewish population who were sent to death for their jewishness by the nazis. since the creation of israel, many settlements have been added - this solution was implemented without any input from those most affected - the people already living there.
israel with the backing of the western world, whose main support is from the united states, can and does have nuclear power sanctioned by those who have the power to sanction.
the issue of double standards continues to raise its ugly head - we can have nuclear weapons because we believe we are not going to use the weapons. iraq, iran and the rest of the countries wanting their own toys of destruction are not allowed it because we (the west)have decided they are not to have them. we went to war with iraq on the understanding that they had weapons of mass destruction - based on lies but tony blair is not going to admit this.
i am afraid that we have to develop techniques to stomach this kind of politics - since we the people cannot actually convince our leaders not to go to war.
our grandchildren no doubt will look on this generation of politics as the loathsome creatures they are, we unfortunately, continue to pay our taxes to governments who are determined to follow their own agenda.
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Message 30
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Wednesday, 1st February 2006
Kuwait doesnt need a protecter, Britian only "protects" Kuwait for the supply of oil.
The oil was for tanks and airoplanes to attack arabic nieghbours to Kuwait.
docÌý
I think you may need to seriously engage your brain before typing my young padawan.
The events of 1991 have clearly passed you by and my point about the Kuwaiti protectorate is that it was back in the days of the LoN mandates and into the 1950's.
Britain protects Kuwait (or rather the Americans do) because the Kuwaiti government asked them to.
And as for attacking Kuwait's neighbours I beleive that SH was the one to start GW1 and not the Allies. SH invaded Kuwait, we responded to their pleas of help and liberated Kuwait.
I think it might well be time for you to grow up Doc and get some perspective on the world around you -
Message 31
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Wednesday, 1st February 2006
Peepys
I agree with your second point that we in the west gained Nuclear weapons we pulled up the drawbridge and shout down from the ramparts that these weapons are bad and you shouldn't have them.
Its a case of do as I say not as I do writ large on the international stage.
With your first point, many states in Europe had a vested interest in NOT allowing the state of Israel to exist. The British first and foremost. That we failed is I think for the better, it is a pity that the Palestinians did not have better leaders back in 1947 when a compromise was I beleive on offer from Ben Gurion. It was the Palestinians who chose to leave and then create an armed struggle beleiving that the Arab states would soon wipe out the Israeli's. There are many Israeli Arabs who live quite happily within Israel and they are the example that should have been followed. It would have helped avoid a large degree of hurt -
Message 32
Posted by peepys (U2381451) on Thursday, 2nd February 2006
To Ritchie
thanks for the response. i do believe that the antisemitism in europe was a primary reason for setting up israel. there are some strong words by some of the leaders in the middle east, n quite frankly, i do have some sympathy for their views although i would not go so far as to advocate not recognising the state of israel.
the situation with the palestinians and israel is very much David v Goliath, and this i believe is why they (the palestinians) have done what they have been doing - no matter how distrubred they seem to b, in all honesty, how can they defeat the might of the israeli war mechanism. what they leaders have not done in palestine is to condemn the continued taking of life on both sides - the palestinians are treated as invaders within their own territory, having to go thro check point etc. israel has continued to build settlements in areas not designated to her. the palestinian leaders need to get to the table for discussion of strategy that does not involve killing - whole generations of their own people have been written off with the suicide bombers killing indiscriminately - i do hope that everyone, despite the hatred they feel for each other, realise they have a common goal (living peacefully with each other and respecting each others differences and celebrate commonality)and work harder to stay away from the tit for tat killing going on in the region.
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