Wars and Conflicts听 permalink
Sten gun
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.听
Posted by Miranda (U2203130) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
What was the rationale for the sideways-on design of the sten gun magazine?
I have never fired one of course, nor indeed any firearm, but if I imagine doing so, it seems to me that holding the side-on magazine would make the weapon more difficult to control than if it was conventionally situated on the underside. -
Message 2
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
Cheaper design, and you don't need a spring that is as powerful. The Owen gun had a mag. that fed from the top. The Sten was designed so it could be built by blacksmiths, or anyone that had a work shop. I remember reading a Si Fi story years ago, (Harry Turtledove reused the idea in Guns of the South) Where a man took the design of the Sten gun, and traveled back to the U S Civil War. The reason being, the Sten would be the only modern day weapon, that could be made in the early 1800s.
-
Message 3
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
Fred,
And what a nasty horrible little gun it was! But necessary I suppose! -
Message 4
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
Can you picture in your mind that machine gun that all Germans seem to carry in WW2 war films??. I think it's called a Schmeisser and the long magazine held many, many rounds of ammunition and was (normally) situated on the underside of the weapon, as you mention.
They made huge amounts of these weapons, but contrary to popular belief, they were quite unpopular with the average German soldier. Why??, well imagine yourself in a close combat situation and you need to hit the ground to take cover. WHACK...the magazine hits the ground before you do, and then you have the cumbersome task of firing and reloading this weapon with an oversize magazine preventing you from keeping your backside flat to the ground. My Grandad told me at Arnhem, the Germans with Schmeissers were grabbing weapons from dead comrades, or Brit casualties, and throwing away their Schmeissers at the earliest opportunity.
I don't think that really answers your question, but it's something to be considered in the design of firearms. -
Message 5
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
Plancenoit,
Hugo Schmeisser had nothing to do with it's design, it was mistakingly called that by some, it is either an MP 38 or 40. -
Message 6
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
Thanks Mani, I really didn't know what it was called, but Schmeisser always springs to mind.
-
Message 7
Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
The German SMG you refer to is an MP-40, which by my reckoning was one of the best SMG's of WWII?
Possibly along with the Thompson SMG.
I can't imagine many Germans swapping an MP-40 for a British Sten?
Bulky magazine or not!! -
Message 8
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
Little Enos,
I would tend to disagree.
Although the Mp40 was a slight improvement on the Mp38, It is still overall a poor weapon. Of those that I would rate over it would be the Finnish Suomi M/31, it鈥檚 soviet copy the PPSH41, the Thompson, The Italian Beretta Series of SMG's even the Bergman that the Germans did use is a far superior weapon..
The models of the MP40 may have had many of it's teething problems ironed out (And there were plenty!) the Sten still hadn't at an early stage of the war, but certainly had later on... -
Message 9
Posted by Timgt40 (U2993889) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
Aah the Stench gun!
I believe the Germans actually manufactured a copy of it late in the War for issue to Volksturm Units and Werewolves, it was accurate right down to makers marks. -
Message 10
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
Incidentally, Hugo Schmeisser may have had nothing to do with the over-rated Mp 38 or Mp40, but he did invent far more significant weapons鈥
He invented to MP18 during the great war, the first mass-produced SMG who鈥檚 manufacture continued right up to the end of WW2, an excellent weapon copied by many countries, including ourselves as the 'Lanchester SMG' but more significantly, the MP-43 or Sturmgewehr; The First Assault Rifle.
Schmeisser, probably after John Browning is the most significant Small arms designer of the last century, even more so the Mikhail Kalashnikov or Eugene Stoner. -
Message 11
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
In fact, the side mounted magazine was common in sub-machine guns of the First World War and inter-war years.
Plancenoit's comments re: the problems of firing from a prone position with the MP38/40 are true enough - that was the main reason why the Waffen-SS preferred weapons like the MP18/34 Bergmann, or the MP28 Schmeisser, both of which had side-mounted magazines.
The German version of the Sten was the MP3008.
Far superior were the MP43/SG44 Assault Rifle and the FG42 Paratroop Rifle. The former still had the problem of the bottom-mounted magazine, but the FG42 was side-loading. -
Message 12
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
Anglo Norman,
I think the main problem with the FG-42 was the complexity of production, and it's weight. Much like the BAR, it was far too heavy... But as you say, better than the MP38/40
"that was the main reason why the Waffen-SS preferred weapons like the MP18/34 Bergmann" The Mp18 was preferred more so for several reasons, firstly the stock on the MP38/40 was poor, it didn't offer a stable firing platform, secondly in the heat of battle couldn't be used as a club, the MP18 having a handsome stock did both, thirdly, the quality of construction, accuracy was far superior on the MP18. -
Message 13
Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
So what are peoples opinions of the best semi-auto / assault rifle of WWII?
Choices would no doubt be from
German MP-43/4 & Gewr 41
Soviet SVT 40
US M1 Garand
Would the MP 44 come out on top? -
Message 14
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
My late Father in Law baled out of a tank, and tried to fight off a German patrol with his sten. He ended up taking the thing apart and throwing the parts at them. I would have thought one of the best (As well as one of the cheapest Sub Machine guns of W W 2, had to be the Russian P P S. Drum mag, good supply of ammo. The Owen went on to see service in Veitnam. The Sten was upgraded, and became the Stirling, which is still used around the world.
-
Message 15
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 20th January 2006
Little Enos,
I think in revolutionary terms, the Sturmgewehr has to be on top, a concept still going strong now, although we in NATO missed the point for several decades by adopting the 7.62*54mm round (A metric version of the US .30Cal) before seeing the light and adopting a lighter round.
I think the Bren Gun (Who鈥檚 metric conversion is still in Service with the Green Slime aka Royal Marines) would be in the top few, accurate and reliable as anything. Those Czechs can design small arms!
In questioning what is best, it comes down to horses for courses really. In some situations an SMG is better in others a LMG or Assault rifle.
The Garand was a fine weapon,. Hence the US using it as the bases of the M14 they used in the opening years of the Vietnam conflict, but it had floors, and in combat situations, they were big floors. You couldn鈥檛 鈥榯op up鈥 the magazine ie you had to empty it completely before re-loading, and as US troops found out in Korea, when the clip extracts itself in winter, or on harder ground it tends to give your enemy a signal that you鈥檙e-loading by the noise it makes.
When looking at semi/fully automatic and what is best, I think we鈥檝e missed out the most obvious - The Browning 9mm HP or the Colt 1911 .45 鈥 Both in service still, that says something about John Browning and his designs really never been bettered in close to 100 years鈥. -
Message 16
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 20th January 2006
GrumpyFred,
The PPSH41 is indeed a fine weapon in the field it was used, much like the later AK series of assault rifles, it鈥檚 generous engineering tolerances were ideal.
From all accounts, the Finnish Suomi SMG from which the PPSH41 was copied after the Winter and continuation wars was a superior weapon鈥 Although I鈥檝e never fired one, so couldn鈥檛 comment personally. -
Message 17
Posted by Miranda (U2203130) on Friday, 20th January 2006
Thanks for your replies everyone, which are knowledgeable and well-informed, as ever on this Board.
GrumpyFred: how did your father-in-law get out of that situation (or did he? I assume he survived the encounter).
Also, picking up on one of GrumpyFred's points, I assume a 'drum' magazine is the round, 'Al-Capone' type. Why are/were these not more popular? Too heavy? Awkward shape to pack/carry? -
Message 18
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 20th January 2006
Mirander,
The drum, or even the snail were good in some situations, but impractical in others. They took longer to load, in some cases requiring a separate device to load the rounds, and more cumbersome to carry. The standard 32/30/28 round stick magazine was easier to carry and easier to load.
The Drum was more practical in a more sustained fire role, but the SMG itself is impractical in such a role. Anything other than a three round burst, the centre of gravity changes due to the action of the bolt, raising the barrel making the weapon stupidly inaccurate at anything other than short ranges. -
Message 19
Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Friday, 20th January 2006
So were in agreement that the Sturmgewehr (MP-44) was probably the best gun.
Very valid points re: the Browning and the Colt, just shows that qualirty lasts.....
But on the subject of WWII guns, I've been playing quite a bit of Call of Duty 2 on the PC at present and while this obviously doesn't constitute as being an active combatant
, the range of guns depicted in the game is very accurate (as a simulation)!
I found from playing that -
The M1 Garand is the best overall gun as good at longe range and up close, but the fact that you cant re-load mid clip is a major pain (as already posted factually)
But on the game I loved all the German guns like the MP-44, MP-40, and KAR 98, and if playing as the allies (British, Soviet or American), first thing I would do after shooting a German is to swap my guns for his, unless I have the Garand (Always play as the Axis online
)!!
Don't like the British Sten or Lee Enfield, The US Thompson is a good SMG but only holds 20 rounds per clip (factually accurate I believe) where as the MP-40 holds 32 rounds per clip and at least on the game is a nicely balanced SMG.
British Bren and US BAR however I liked!
As for the Russian guns, the Mosin Nagat bolt action rifle is class, The SVT 40 is sublime and probably the 2nd best gun in the game, however I didn't like th PPS SMG, lacks stopping power!
Just interesting comparisons in relation to peoples postings about the "real life" versions of respective WWII guns.
Little Enos,
I think in revolutionary terms, the Sturmgewehr has to be on top, a concept still going strong now, although we in NATO missed the point for several decades by adopting the 7.62*54mm round (A metric version of the US .30Cal) before seeing the light and adopting a lighter round.
I think the Bren Gun (Who鈥檚 metric conversion is still in Service with the Green Slime aka Royal Marines) would be in the top few, accurate and reliable as anything. Those Czechs can design small arms!
In questioning what is best, it comes down to horses for courses really. In some situations an SMG is better in others a LMG or Assault rifle.
The Garand was a fine weapon,. Hence the US using it as the bases of the M14 they used in the opening years of the Vietnam conflict, but it had floors, and in combat situations, they were big floors. You couldn鈥檛 鈥榯op up鈥 the magazine ie you had to empty it completely before re-loading, and as US troops found out in Korea, when the clip extracts itself in winter, or on harder ground it tends to give your enemy a signal that you鈥檙e-loading by the noise it makes.
When looking at semi/fully automatic and what is best, I think we鈥檝e missed out the most obvious - The Browning 9mm HP or the Colt 1911 .45 鈥 Both in service still, that says something about John Browning and his designs really never been bettered in close to 100 years鈥.
听 -
Message 20
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Friday, 20th January 2006
He didn't. Finished the war by mistake in a concration camp. Also realised it was time to give up when a german put a burst from his M P through his gunners knee.
-
Message 21
Posted by desertfox (U2819982) on Friday, 20th January 2006
The MP40 is an amazing room clearing weapon as far as i know, well it is on Call of Duty, but the Kar 98, was issued to the basic rifleman. Also the sten and the MP40 used the same ammunition from what ive heard, coorrect me if im wrong, meaning a british soldier could fire captured german ammo, or use his sten ammo in an mp40 if his sten malfunctioned. also the sten is incredibly easy to pice together and take apart, im told so it could be easily smuggled to resistance unitsm, who could then use captured german ammo. also for best gun what about the STG 44, reasonably accurate, powerful, and with a hgh rate of fire, whats not to like
-
Message 22
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Saturday, 21st January 2006
Desert Fox,
You're right, both the Sten and MP38/40 use a 9mm Parabellum (Parabellum being the correct name for the toggle action luger pistol). The Soviet PPSH series use a bottle necked 7.62mm, although the Germans on the eastern front converted captured versions to their standard 9mm Parabellum and the Thompson used a .45cal ACP round.
The Mauser action (Forward locking lugs on the bolt) K98 although in principle should be more accurate than the Rear locking lugs of the SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield) in reality the Lee Enfield was a far better weapon.
The Sten (Depending on which model) is easy to assemble... -
Message 23
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Saturday, 21st January 2006
.. Also, It may be pretty good on a computer game, but as listed previously, there were far better SMG's avalaible, even to the German forces.
The MP40 was far from a wonderful weapon.
For clearing a room the Shotgun/hand grenade combo option should never be overlooked. -
Message 24
Posted by 3Lllama (U2603256) on Sunday, 22nd January 2006
That would be A Soldier in Time by Harry Harrison? Probably out of print now - which is a shame, as it鈥檚 one of his best and has some superb twists at the end. Harrison seems to have a thing about small arms and improvised weapons and some of his books argue for imperialism from a liberal perspective (though not too obtrusively).
-
Message 25
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Sunday, 22nd January 2006
I enjoyed Soldier in time, and if you have read Guns of the South. you will see where Turtlrdove got the idea from. although he used the A k 47. The sten had some interesting problems. Such as if you banged the butt down, you where likely to find the contents of the mag going up past your ear. If you gripped the barrel in the wrong place, as the gun recycled, you could (And did) find that you had removed part of your finger. The earlier models could fall apart as you fired it. It was cheap and nasty, BUT served a purpose unril the upgraded later marks came along. It was cheaper to built than the Thompson, which even when the later model Tommy Gun came on the scene was still expencive, and took a long time to make. (Hence the Grease gun) The sten did give way of course to the Stirling which came about because of point one, when the man working on it dropped the gun (Loaded, YOU SHOULD NEVER MESS ABOUT WITH A LOADED WEAPON) and the contents of the mag, went up through the roof, and into his baby daughters bedroom, missing her by inches.
-
Message 26
Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Monday, 23rd January 2006
Mani,
Re: the shotgun for room clearing, quite agree, however how widely used were shotguns in WWII? My understanding is they were mainly used in the Pacific theatre for bunker / trench clearing. But I'm lead to believe, that they were quite rare in the European theatre?
Again going back ot Call of Duty 2, There is a large debate with online players, as shotguns are depicted in the game in terms of realism, (as the game is entirely based in the European theatre) that shotguns shouldn't be included as in "real life", niether the Germans or Allies used them?
.. Also, It may be pretty good on a computer game, but as listed previously, there were far better SMG's avalaible, even to the German forces.
The MP40 was far from a wonderful weapon.
For clearing a room the Shotgun/hand grenade combo option should never be overlooked.听 -
Message 27
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Monday, 23rd January 2006
Little Enos,
They certainly were used in the European Theatre, Mainly by the allies, although use was more unofficial. Necessity in the east brought about it's use. With the sensitive engineering tolerances employed on the US semi-automatic weapons, humidity and in the case of Nimitz' island hopping with sand, a pump action was less liable to jam.
The German's continued their view from WW1 that Shot guns were uncivilised, and users were generally shot on the spot.
In regards to the game, as you said previously that the Lee enfield is less user friendly that the Mauser, this is just one area where reality is different鈥 -
Message 28
Posted by HistoricallyInclined (U2629030) on Monday, 23rd January 2006
Don't forget the French Chanterault machine gun, it had a top-loading mag. And Call of Duty 2: Big Red One rocks! :P
-
Message 29
Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Monday, 23rd January 2006
The Germans thought the use of shotguns was "uncivilised"
I have heard that before and it has always struck me as stupid!
So being riddled with bullets from an MP-40, MP-44, MG-34 or MG-42 is a civilised and humane way to kill someone as opposed to the nasty shotgun?
-
Message 30
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Monday, 23rd January 2006
Little enos,
In regards to WW1, it always amazes me that a country who started gassing the enemy considered shot guns a taboo... And shot out of hand any prisoners that had one! -
Message 31
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Monday, 23rd January 2006
I'm pretty sure the use of shotguns is banned under the geneva convention.
-
Message 32
Posted by jberie (U1767537) on Monday, 23rd January 2006
Mani,
Re: the shotgun for room clearing, quite agree, however how widely used were shotguns in WWII? My understanding is they were mainly used in the Pacific theatre for bunker / trench clearing. But I'm lead to believe, that they were quite rare in the European theatre?
Again going back ot Call of Duty 2, There is a large debate with online players, as shotguns are depicted in the game in terms of realism, (as the game is entirely based in the European theatre) that shotguns shouldn't be included as in "real life", niether the Germans or Allies used them?
.. Also, It may be pretty good on a computer game, but as listed previously, there were far better SMG's avalaible, even to the German forces.
The MP40 was far from a wonderful weapon.
For clearing a room the Shotgun/hand grenade combo option should never be overlooked.听 听
The current issue of Amercian Rifleman (Publication of the National Rifle Association--a gun enthusiast and conservative gun lobbyist organization) has an article on WW2 shotguns. "Approximately 80,000 Model 12 trench guns wer manufactured between, 1941 and 1944..." -
Message 33
Posted by jberie (U1767537) on Monday, 23rd January 2006
What was the rationale for the sideways-on design of the sten gun magazine?
I have never fired one of course, nor indeed any firearm, but if I imagine doing so, it seems to me that holding the side-on magazine would make the weapon more difficult to control than if it was conventionally situated on the underside.听
My is a former soldier, and is a gun collector and gun enthusiast. I looked through a few of his firearms books for your answer. I could find nothing about the side-mounting of the magizine.
I did find that the idea behind the Sten was quick production. The disaster at Dunkirk resulted in a huge loss of weaponry and a firearm that could be quickly manufactured was needed.
The Sten is said to have had a terrible tendency to jam. The most famous jamming story ( I suppose) is when the Sten jammed on the first round in an assasination attempt on Heydrich. -
Message 34
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Tuesday, 24th January 2006
I'm pretty sure the use of shotguns is banned under the geneva convention.
听
I'm not aware that it is against any convention of war, and can't find any referance to suggest it is.... -
Message 35
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Tuesday, 24th January 2006
"The Sten is said to have had a terrible tendency to jam" Mainly down tot he manufacturing quality than anything....
In regards to it being harder to control, I wouldn't have thought it made any difference, given the location of the bolt in both positions, in ref to the magazine houseing? -
Message 36
Posted by Stan (U2563351) on Tuesday, 24th January 2006
I have read that despite the sten magazine taking up to 30 rounds mots people only put in about 20 - 25 rounds depending on the age of the magazine and hence the spring in it.
-
Message 37
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Tuesday, 24th January 2006
Stan,
Brand new Mags only had 28 put it, it helped everything! -
Message 38
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 24th January 2006
To go back to the "Call of Duty 2" side of it, I haven't played the PS2 version, just the PC one, and I have to agree that the MP40 is (in this game) the best weapon to get your hands on, particularly for street fighting (although that's probably due to the fact that if you're using the enemy's weapon, you have practically no chance of running out of ammo (and can therefore happily riddle any unfortunate German who pops up in front of your).
I must admit, that I have the rather nasty tendency of getting on an MG42 at every opportunity! COD2 is the first game I've seen where the MG42 has the rate of fire (and noise) of the real thing! The best squad weapon of WW2 IMO, and it must have been horrendous to have that thing blurting out rounds at you!
On the shotgun debate, I've read something similar on them being considered "uncivilised" for warfare. Kind of odd really. I'd have thought them impractical rather than anything (except maybe in house clearance), since they'd be too inaccurate over any sort of distance.
Give me an SLR with Tri-lux sight any day.
Cheers -
Message 39
Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Tuesday, 24th January 2006
Your not kidding about the MG42's on COD2, especially the Point Du Hoc Mission when played on Veteren skill level, you get absolutely cut to shreads, its a good job you can hide in the bushes stroke / trenches and "heal" yourself
!
But about as close to a D-Day assault as you'd like to get too......
Incidently was Point Du Hoc a genuine mission in real life? i.e. knock out the captured French guns as they were a danger to the allied beach head? I belive it was due to the Ronald Reagan speech on the game when you finish the mission. But my god the U.S. casualties acomplishing that must of been horrendous (if the real assault was anything like the game version)? -
Message 40
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 24th January 2006
Yes Enos,
Pointe du Hoc was a genuine mission on D-day, they used grappling hooks to climb the cliffs, all while the Germans were shooting down at them, lobbing grenades, and cutting the ropes (not good if you're halfway up a cliff!). The Yanks did it though, they took the objective, and held it, only to find that the heavy guns they were meant to destroy had been removed a week before. They took the cliff, but didn't even need to, there were no guns there.
Cheers -
Message 41
Posted by Stepney Boy (U1760040) on Wednesday, 25th January 2006
The position of the magazine is opposite the cartridge ejection port therefore they had to put the magazine where they did. Underneath and the ejected cartridges would be coming out into the line of sight the user. On top and you would not be able to sight the weapon,if anyone ever did
also as most people are right handed i.e held the gun and fired it using their right hand enabling them to change magazines without changing hands.
trust this helps
Spike What was the rationale for the sideways-on design of the sten gun magazine?
I have never fired one of course, nor indeed any firearm, but if I imagine doing so, it seems to me that holding the side-on magazine would make the weapon more difficult to control than if it was conventionally situated on the underside.听 -
Message 42
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Wednesday, 25th January 2006
Spike,
Not too sure what you mean???
"Underneath and the ejected cartridges would be coming out into the line of sight the user" Not at all, with most weapons with the magazine housing underneath, the ejection port is on the right, not on top.
"On top and you would not be able to sight the weapon" You can quite easily. Examples being the Bren and Owen Gun (Aussie SMG). -
Message 43
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 25th January 2006
The sights on the bren gun are at the side, but it means you can only fire it right handed. The Owen as with the sten is not really meant as such to be aimed by sights. Its a point in the general direction of target, and pull (Squeeze) trigger. They are both built for close up and personal work. The Bren had to be altered, as it was to good. You could if held properly, put the whole 28 shot mag through the same hole.
-
Message 44
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Thursday, 26th January 2006
Fred,
鈥淭he Bren had to be altered, as it was to good. You could if held properly, put the whole 28 shot mag through the same hole.鈥 Well it鈥檚 still in service with the Green slime, so it must be good! -
Message 45
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 26th January 2006
Re Bren. I agree, it was/is the finest light machine gun ever invented. Light portable, with a replacement barrel. On single shot work, almost a sniper weapon, and the slight modifacation stopped it killing the same man 28 times. Oh the book says the old 303 mag held 30, but thirty jammed it. I think they just translated the book from the Cheq. which was rimless. Never fired one after we converted, so not sure about mag now. But as I say, the best light ever. FAR better than the B.A.R.
-
Message 46
Posted by Stepney Boy (U1760040) on Thursday, 26th January 2006
I stand corrected, Just thinking out loud
Regards
Spike Spike,
Not too sure what you mean???
"Underneath and the ejected cartridges would be coming out into the line of sight the user" Not at all, with most weapons with the magazine housing underneath, the ejection port is on the right, not on top.
"On top and you would not be able to sight the weapon" You can quite easily. Examples being the Bren and Owen Gun (Aussie SMG).
听
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or 听to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
麻豆约拍 iD
麻豆约拍 navigation
麻豆约拍 links
麻豆约拍 漏 2014 The 麻豆约拍 is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.