Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Orde Wingate, Chindit Extraordinaire.
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Β
Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Friday, 13th January 2006
Orde Wingate and the Chindits. More than two Infantry divisions (many of them among the best in the British Army) and massive air support. Rare resources that General Slim could have used to good advantage. What did Wingate really get accomplished with these first class assets? Was Wingate nothing but a romanticized paper tiger? Your thoughts gentlemen.
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Message 2
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Friday, 13th January 2006
Paper tiger? I dont know. I do know that at the time he started the average British soldier in Burma considered himself outclassed by the Japanese. The Chindits were proof in part that they didnt have to be.
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Message 3
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Saturday, 14th January 2006
expat, hi,
Well, what a potential can of worms. Well, what did Wingate achieve with these assets. Some local tactical successes, some disruption to Japanese communications and supplies and thanks to sickness and malnutrition a casualty rate of 80% in the first expedition. (Based on 600 out of 3,000 being fit for further service).
His thoughts on Lang Range Penetration may appear to be miltarily sound, however there is no plan B for when things go wrong. It is suprising that Wingate was allowed to launch his operation independently without them being part of a larger plan. However when you take into account, shall we say, Wingates personality and drive, perhaps less so. Also his proposals were, probably, the only offensive operations that could be carried out.
Possibly the most damning thing that can be said about Wingate is that his proposals had Churchills support. (Whilst Churchill had many excellent qualities, sound military strategy and tactics cannot be included).
I'm certainly not of the opinion that Wingate was an unmitigated disaster. Probably more that Wingate was a disaster with mitigation. Please note, I don't intend my thoughts on Wingate to be a reflection on the troops under his command.
I'm not of the opinion that Wingate and his Chindits turned around the notion that only the Japanese could fight in the jungle, or that the troops were in awe of the Japanese prior to the Chindit operations and these operations altered this perspective. From what I've read of individuals in XIVth Army they were a little sick of all the talk of the Chindits.
Cheers AA. -
Message 4
Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Sunday, 15th January 2006
Hi Arnald,
Re:
You surprise me with this. I would say his thoughts on behind the lines in that environment borders on madness. Burma as you know is not the Middle East. His plan B for his first incursion was actually quite simple. If the wounded can't walk out, leave them where they are, or put a bullet through their heads. When he decided on fortified positions in his second debacle, he lost a lot of surprise and ability to maneuver.
Cheers. -
Message 5
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Sunday, 15th January 2006
expat32, thanks for responding,
If you read carefully what I wrote (apologies to Ernie Wise), you will see I agree with you.
Cheers AA. -
Message 6
Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Sunday, 15th January 2006
AA,
I interpreted your phraseology to mean you advocated his ideas on this.
Cheers. Matt. -
Message 7
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Sunday, 15th January 2006
Apologies expat,
possibly I didn't read certain nuances into your post.
Cheers AA. -
Message 8
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Sunday, 15th January 2006
AA,
I interpreted your phraseology to mean you advocated his ideas on this.
Cheers. Matt.Β
I apologise again Matt, our posts must have crossed.
I do not defend Wingate.
Cheers AA.
(As you know I am the WW2 defender and advocate of Slim as the greatest WW2 General of all, so anything I say against Wingate must be taken with a pinch of salt).
Cheers AA. -
Message 9
Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Sunday, 15th January 2006
I will have a thread tomorrow relative to General Slim. That guy was so underated.
Cheers. -
Message 10
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Sunday, 15th January 2006
I will have a thread tomorrow relative to General Slim. That guy was so underated.
°δ³σ±π±π°ω²υ.Μύ
Guess which side I'll be on? (Oddly enough I believe Slim was under rated).
Cheers, AA. -
Message 11
Posted by jberie (U1767537) on Tuesday, 17th January 2006
Expat,
Last December I read a Chindit's inside view of their operations; "The Road Past Mandalay," by John Masters.
I had to spend the night in the room that had been my son's and spied it on his self. Master's story is so well written and interesting that I had to pause in reading "Paris 1919."
I highly recommend the Chindit book. It reads like a novel.
JB -
Message 12
Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Tuesday, 17th January 2006
Hi jberie
I have read that book several times (its that kind of book) I agree, once you pick it up your hooked. I also recommend by Masters, Of Bugles and Tigers.
Cheers, Matt. -
Message 13
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
Interesting reading, these posts. I shall search out the John Masters book. Tell me, is there a book about Orde Wingate? I knew his sister who corresponded with me for several years trying to make an active world federalist of me. She would talk cabbages and kings but was not to be drawn on anything relating to her brother. This may have been because of his conversion.
Thanks P. -
Message 14
Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
Expat,
Had a bit of goof around this subject, and found the most dramatic slap in the face for a commanding officer I have heard of in WWII
Noel Irwin's CV:
# 1942 General Officer Commanding IV Indian Corps, Burma
# 1942 - 1943 General Officer Commanding Eastern Army, India
# 1943 General Officer Commanding 14th Indian Division
# 1944 - 1945 District Officer Commanding East Scotland District
Quite a reduction in role, eh?
Regards
Elistan -
Message 15
Posted by Simon21 (U1338658) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
Orde Wingate and the Chindits. More than two Infantry divisions (many of them among the best in the British Army) and massive air support. Rare resources that General Slim could have used to good advantage. What did Wingate really get accomplished with these first class assets? Was Wingate nothing but a romanticized paper tiger? Your thoughts gentlemen.Β
First class, Wingate? He was a religious anti-semitic fanatic for one thing, who was involved in at least one atrocity in Palestine.
He had to be removed before he could commit any more terrorist acts.
Goering noted his methods and used them in Germany.
As for Burma, like most death nd glory boys his contributions were vastly over rated -
Message 16
Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
Orde Wingate and the Chindits. More than two Infantry divisions (many of them among the best in the British Army) and massive air support. Rare resources that General Slim could have used to good advantage. What did Wingate really get accomplished with these first class assets? Was Wingate nothing but a romanticized paper tiger? Your thoughts gentlemen.Β
First class, Wingate? He was a religious anti-semitic fanatic for one thing, who was involved in at least one atrocity in Palestine.
He had to be removed before he could commit any more terrorist acts.
Goering noted his methods and used them in Germany.
As for Burma, like most death nd glory boys his contributions were vastly over ratedΒ
Simon,
Wingate was a controversial figure in Palestine but was actually a committed Zionist. -
Message 17
Posted by Simon21 (U1338658) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
"Wingate was a controversial figure in Palestine but was actually a committed Zionist."
If you mean by controversial that he was a war criminal and profound anti-semite then yes.
His hatred for a-rabs was the purist racism.
He and the gang around him are responsible for much of the current situation in Palestine.
He was of course supposed to be an impartial arm of the British Government. -
Message 18
Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
"Wingate was a controversial figure in Palestine but was actually a committed Zionist."
If you mean by controversial that he was a war criminal and profound anti-semite then yes.
His hatred for a-rabs was the purist racism.
He and the gang around him are responsible for much of the current situation in Palestine.
He was of course supposed to be an impartial arm of the British Government.Β
Sorry, I misunderstood you. Though you meant he was anti-Jewish.
Yes, he seems as far as far from impartial as you could get I would say.
I didn't know much about him until this thread, your post in particular made me do a bit of internet searching. That and a quiet day at work.
Regards. -
Message 19
Posted by Simon21 (U1338658) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
No worries.
He is often held up as some kind of brilliant soldier.
One has only to read of his "exploits" and opinions to realise he was verging on the hysterical.
And as I say, his tactics against the arabs, night raids, dissapearances etc were noted by Goering.
Moshe Dayan said Wingate taught the Zionists everything they knew.
Sadly that appears to have been true and thousands have died as a result. -
Message 20
Posted by Lord Ball (U1767246) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
Orde Wingate and the Chindits. More than two Infantry divisions (many of them among the best in the British Army) and massive air support. Rare resources that General Slim could have used to good advantage. What did Wingate really get accomplished with these first class assets? Was Wingate nothing but a romanticized paper tiger? Your thoughts gentlemen.Β
First class, Wingate? He was a religious anti-semitic fanatic for one thing, who was involved in at least one atrocity in Palestine.
He had to be removed before he could commit any more terrorist acts.
Goering noted his methods and used them in Germany.
As for Burma, like most death nd glory boys his contributions were vastly over ratedΒ
There is a difference between anti-semitism and being attacked by Jews. Ask some of the soldiers who were stationed in Palestine during the British Mandate who they preferred. The Jews or the Arabs? A lot will say the Arabs because they didn't try and kill you as much as the Jews did.
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