Wars and ConflictsÌý permalink
What did we gain from winning WWII
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by ArthurC (U2867269) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
I can't actually think of much. Germans have a higher standard of living than we have. Germans get better pensions than I do. (An 82 year old SS private got the equivalent of £170 in 1994). Europe would be united. If we had lost the war would we, in 2005, have been better off?
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Message 2
Posted by goodKingRat (U1686634) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
There is one fatal floor in your argument, the prosperity of Germany now is largely to do with its post war history. If Germany had one the war then the history of Germany would be far different and there is no real way of telling whether, under that scenario whether Germany would be as successful as it is now or for that mater how that would affect our own history.
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Message 3
Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
Errrm.....
Freedom from tryany and not living under a ruthless murdering facist dictatership, would seem pretty useful gains from winning WWII to me....
You cant compare Germany present day now after an allied victory to an equivalent present day Germany, assuming an axis victory!
Germany is effectively a rebuilt country with a completely different mindset now to what it would of been had they won WWII.
As for a higher standard of living than us, I'm far from convinced, them joining the Euro has arguably damaged their economy in recent years and doesn't Germany have far higher unemployment than us? -
Message 4
Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
Sorry that should be "Dictatorship"....
!!
Errrm.....
Freedom from tryany and not living under a ruthless murdering facist dictatership, would seem pretty useful gains from winning WWII to me....
You cant compare Germany present day now after an allied victory to an equivalent present day Germany, assuming an axis victory!
Germany is effectively a rebuilt country with a completely different mindset now to what it would of been had they won WWII.
As for a higher standard of living than us, I'm far from convinced, them joining the Euro has arguably damaged their economy in recent years and doesn't Germany have far higher unemployment than us?Ìý -
Message 5
Posted by Mark (U2073932) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
Just watch the march past at the cenotaph and watch all those old veterans march past barrel chested and ramrod straight.
Those pictures to me are worth so much. It's not all about money and living. It can be about pride and knowing that the sacrifices made kept us safe from terrible dictators. -
Message 6
Posted by ArthurC (U2867269) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
And would not England's post war history have been similar to Germany's. Would not the Germans have had a 'Marshal plan' to restore England's industries. I think so. The floor(flaw) you mention does not exist.
There is one fatal floor in your argument, the prosperity of Germany now is largely to do with its post war history. If Germany had one the war then the history of Germany would be far different and there is no real way of telling whether, under that scenario whether Germany would be as successful as it is now or for that mater how that would affect our own history. Ìý -
Message 7
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
no they wouldnt necessarily have, its just as (if not more) likely they would have sucked all that remained of britains industries dry and used its eoples for war, which surely wouldnt have stopped at lands end or anglesey
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Message 8
Posted by ArthurC (U2867269) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
I'm sorry but having lived in Germany for 8 years I'm quite sure that a democratic system would have evolved, especially after Hitler's death. I have spoken to many Germans, both young and old and they tend to agree. Remember Hitler was inclined to favour the English (Anglo-SAXONS); remember Hess? I don't believe that the Enlish would have lived under a tyranny.
Look at the situation now. Rolls Royce, who made engines for the Spitfire, Hurricane etc. Now owned by BMW, who made engines for the Messershmitt and Focke-Wulf. The Chinese are buying Rover, the rest of our industries are owned by the Japanese the French and the Americans. Do you think that would have happened with a United Europe formed in the '40s. No the Germans respected the English and would have ensured the prosperity of Europe.
You don't think the German's have a higher standard of living than us? I left England to work in Germany for a German company. Salary in England £14000, in Germany £32000 and that was in 1987. Live in a German house for a while and enjoy the superb workmanship compared with our poorly built homes. True that the Euro and East Germany have caused problems lately but that would never have happened in a United Europe formed in the 40's
Errrm.....
Freedom from tryany and not living under a ruthless murdering facist dictatership, would seem pretty useful gains from winning WWII to me....
You cant compare Germany present day now after an allied victory to an equivalent present day Germany, assuming an axis victory!
Germany is effectively a rebuilt country with a completely different mindset now to what it would of been had they won WWII.
As for a higher standard of living than us, I'm far from convinced, them joining the Euro has arguably damaged their economy in recent years and doesn't Germany have far higher unemployment than us?Ìý -
Message 9
Posted by Lord Ball (U1767246) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
Churchill got it right when he said that we will look back and say "This was their finest hour." With the Empire gone, a subservient foreign policy and political correctness gone mad we will never see such a finer hour than World War Two for our country.
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Message 10
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
hitler wouldnt have been lenient with us for long, even though were anglo-saxon-and he ended up hating us brits with a passion anyway. and theres no garauntee that the german, and yourself, who feel democracy would have prevailed, seeing as the entire system was totally screwed over shortly after that president guy died (the ww1 general-gorget his name, is famous though)
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Message 11
Posted by SDG (U2050287) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
Has everyone here gone mad sure germany may have a better standard of living than britain. But that means nothing the free world stood up to tyranny and beat it saved millions more from dying in german concentration camps and not just Jews Hitler had a slight dislike to almost every religon under the sun as he viewed them as a threat to his absolute power.
but the greatest thing to come out of WW2 was the UN Charter of Human Rights that small little bundle of paper which declares all men women and children equal regardless of colour or creed -
Message 12
Posted by SDG (U2050287) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
Hi Marduk
The General you speak of was Hindenburg with his death Hitler managed to merge The offices of Chancellor and President into The Furher -
Message 13
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
thanks for that... i knew i knew the name i just couldnt remember it.
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Message 14
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
Has everyone here gone mad sure germany may have a better standard of living than britain. But that means nothing the free world stood up to tyranny and beat it saved millions more from dying in german concentration camps and not just Jews Hitler had a slight dislike to almost every religon under the sun as he viewed them as a threat to his absolute power.
but the greatest thing to come out of WW2 was the UN Charter of Human Rights that small little bundle of paper which declares all men women and children equal regardless of colour or creedÌý
ShaneDG: I agree completely. Just because the U.S. has treated the U.N. with disgust doesn't change the fact the U.N. Charter may be one of the finest documents ever struck by man. I wish more people would read it. -
Message 15
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Thursday, 5th January 2006
i concur
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Message 16
Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Friday, 6th January 2006
ArthurC, You cannot honestly believe that a German victory in the European theatre in WWII would have been a good thing?? Irrespective of whether UK industry is declining, we are still one of the most prosperous countries in Europe and I dont dispute that Germany now is no doubt a fine country to live in.
However I'm sure all the populace of occupied countries like France, Poland, Norway, Belgium, Greece, Holland etal..... enjoyed their time living under Nazi Tyrany?
How many more jews would have been murdered in concentration camps had the Germans won? How many more non-aryans / pure race would be executed? Especially with the likes of Himmler in charge. No one would have been held responsible for all the atrocities committed, i.e. no Nuremburg?
Even if/when Hitler died, what about high ranking Nazi's like Himmler, Goebbels, Speer & Goering etc, these people would effectively be running Europe as a facist dictatorship
& what about Operation Sealion? How the Nazi's had drawn up lists of British people to be executed as enemies of the state had they occupied us.
I'm a keen admirer of the German war machine and tactics used in WWII particularly the early years up to say 1942, you can't help but admire how efficient they were and how they conquerd virtually all of Europe. Sheer brilliance from a purely millitary perspective.
However -
For the sake of humanity and future generations the Nazi regime had to be defeated, it's a simple as that!
I'm sorry but having lived in Germany for 8 years I'm quite sure that a democratic system would have evolved, especially after Hitler's death. I have spoken to many Germans, both young and old and they tend to agree. Remember Hitler was inclined to favour the English (Anglo-SAXONS); remember Hess? I don't believe that the Enlish would have lived under a tyranny.
Look at the situation now. Rolls Royce, who made engines for the Spitfire, Hurricane etc. Now owned by BMW, who made engines for the Messershmitt and Focke-Wulf. The Chinese are buying Rover, the rest of our industries are owned by the Japanese the French and the Americans. Do you think that would have happened with a United Europe formed in the '40s. No the Germans respected the English and would have ensured the prosperity of Europe.
You don't think the German's have a higher standard of living than us? I left England to work in Germany for a German company. Salary in England £14000, in Germany £32000 and that was in 1987. Live in a German house for a while and enjoy the superb workmanship compared with our poorly built homes. True that the Euro and East Germany have caused problems lately but that would never have happened in a United Europe formed in the 40's
Errrm.....
Freedom from tryany and not living under a ruthless murdering facist dictatership, would seem pretty useful gains from winning WWII to me....
You cant compare Germany present day now after an allied victory to an equivalent present day Germany, assuming an axis victory!
Germany is effectively a rebuilt country with a completely different mindset now to what it would of been had they won WWII.
As for a higher standard of living than us, I'm far from convinced, them joining the Euro has arguably damaged their economy in recent years and doesn't Germany have far higher unemployment than us?Ìý Ìý -
Message 17
Posted by Scottish Librarian (U1772828) on Friday, 6th January 2006
Any British jews or gypsies gained life by winning the war, something they would have lost otherwise.
Paul -
Message 18
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Friday, 6th January 2006
In previous decades (West) Germany did have a higher standard of living than Britain, but things have changed. As someone pointed out earlier the German unemployment rate is about 11% compared to the UK's 4.7% (as in November), British companies on the whole are performing better than their German counterparts, they exist in a better economic climate, Germany's GDP growth is around 0.6% compared to the UK's 1.6% (and that's after the Chancellor revised his figure downwards!), and UK wages are rising by an average of 4.7% to Germany's 0.9%... All those figures come from The Economist
The recent German election was interesting in that the German electorate did not give Angela Merkel the mandate she desired to be Germany's answer to Thatcher (as so many people were comparing her) - many believing that Germany needs some economic reforms along the lines of Thatcher.
This lack of economic reform, along with Reuninfication do not help the situation, and it has probably been exacerbated by the adoption of the Euro which has often had interest rate changes go in the wrong direction to Germany's (and France's) best interests. -
Message 19
Posted by iPad (U2181937) on Friday, 6th January 2006
The other thing people are forgetting is that Hitler himself was not a skilled ruler of a country. He put forth a percetion of strength, power and progress, but was at the top of an anarcic government where officials vied for his attention rather than running the country for its good. Aside from invading, a lot of other countries were already doing things Hitler was doing to rebuild his country's economy and infilstructure.
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Message 20
Posted by ritesh (U1886080) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
Arthur C, Hitler was friend of no body!. Victory of germany under Hitler would mean perpetual destruction for jews, and everyone else who might stand against germany. Your complaining about life in britain comparison to germany , the pension, cannot be worth more than lives of innocent jews who would have been promptly exterminated had Hitler prevailed.You live in a free society, breathe free air, living peacefully in latter years of your life, that would not have been possible had germany under Hitler remained.
Your impression that Hitler would have remained amicably with Britain(!!?) is illusion. I think, initially Hitler thought that perhaps Britain can be brought to the negotiating table without a fight .But, behind that thinking was his ploy to gain time, until germany would be fully ready for assault on anyone.I sometimes allude this thinking of Hitler behind the abrupt ceasation of encirclement upon 300,000 british and other soldiers escaping France from Dunkirk.He wanted to send a message that he was no enemy of britain but that was a ploy to gain time. I Think you underestimate the psyche of Adolf Hitler.May i condescend to recommend to you a book that may elucidate the finer traits(!!!??) of Adolf Hitler, Read : 'Mein Kemp' By Adolf Hitler. Perhaps , that would dis-illusion you. -
Message 21
Posted by Brevabloke (U1685837) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
And Rolls-Royce is NOT owned by BMW by the way; the car making firm and the aero engine firm split a long time ago, and its the car bit thats owned by BMW.
Rolls-Royce is probably the leading manufacturer of jet engines in the world today, and the RB211 is a marvel of raw power. They have a fine tradition of brilliant engines starting with the Nene. -
Message 22
Posted by darkm1966 (U1788418) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
The plans for a Nazi occupation of Britain included transportation of most of the male population "overseas", a long list or aristocrats and such to be immediately arrested, and harsh penalties for resistance so it doesn't look too amicable to me.
Whilst I accept the point that after time/Hitler's death things may have settled down somewhat, the question has to be asked what sort of state Britain (or Europe) would be left in by then? And how long it would have taken to recover? -
Message 23
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
And would not England's post war history have been similar to Germany's. Would not the Germans have had a 'Marshal plan' to restore England's industries. I think so. The floor(flaw) you mention does not exist.
There is one fatal floor in your argument, the prosperity of Germany now is largely to do with its post war history. If Germany had one the war then the history of Germany would be far different and there is no real way of telling whether, under that scenario whether Germany would be as successful as it is now or for that mater how that would affect our own history. Ìý Ìý
Arthur,
Are you having a laugh? There is an actual document written up by the Sicherheitsdienst (Heydrich's mob) which contains the detailed plans as to how the UK was to be handled if the Germans had invaded and defeated us.
It is not too pleasant. There is a list of ten or so thousand individual people who were to be arrested immediately for "special treatment" (and we now know what that means), the country was to be basically asset stripped, and the majority of the able-bodied male population were to be sent to Germany for slave labour.
A German Marshall Plan for the UK? Yep there sure was. It involved pillaging the islands of everything of value, be it art, industry, natural resources, whatever, destroying the country's economic power, deporting vast numbers of its population, concentration camps, and of course, an extra special fate for the UK's Jewish population. They wrote it all down Arthur, so as you sit there moaning about your pension, be happy that they didn't win, you'd have died a long time ago if they had.
DL -
Message 24
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
If we had lost the war, the likes of Liverpool with its multi culture would have been turned in to one big camp. The whole of the population would have been destroyed, along with most big cities. Ireland would have been reunited, under the Swastika. Most adult males could have found themselves in slave camps or fighting on the Russian front. Most woman in the same camps. Of course many would have been better off. Those who supported the Germans. We would not of had any problems as such in the middle east, because there would have not been any jews left to start the new state. The U S would have stayed out of the war, and not become the super power it is today. In time, there would have been a good chance that Russia would have fought its way all the way to England, and then we would have exchanged one master for another.
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Message 25
Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
The scariest thing about this entire thread is that it was started at all. I sincerely hope this is just a 'wind up' question. Otherwise it shows that there definitely ARE dangerous people in the world.
Who on earth is Arthur C getting his information from? I really don't like to think about it - but perhaps we should.
If he's really that keen on the Nazis, he should try living under their rule. As a Jew/gypsy/gay/handicapped etc etc etc.
Eliza. -
Message 26
Posted by Erichsen (U2991919) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
Arthur, I have never lived in Germany as you have, but I sense modern Germans are quite optimistic about 'eventual outcomes' for the post-Hitler fatherland, which I would greatly hesitate to say it would mean post-Nazi Party. While the Party wouldn't go down without a fight (Hitler or not), it is impossible to say what would happen. Surely the German opposition to Hitler has, according to the record, been tame and uncoordinated at best.
With that said, Hitler's plans for UK were totally evil, and did not stop there.
Without the UK, would the US have been able to defend itself? US invasion was in Hitler's long-term plans.
Such a casual and comfort-centric (?) attitude on such a history is unsettling.
Read up, why don't you.
-Chris in the US -
Message 27
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
you know that by b'46 the germans wouldve been bobing the us eastern seaboard with nukes dropped from stealth planes very similar to the b-1 (the b-1 was created using german plans)
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Message 28
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
do you know that by b'46 the germans wouldve been bobing the us eastern seaboard with nukes dropped from stealth planes very similar to the b-1 (the b-1 was created using german plans)
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Message 29
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
I thought the B 1 was based on the Northrop Flying wing, which in turn was based on an earlier Northrop war time design. I know we all pinched a lot of German ideas though. When Russia Spunic into space the Russians remarked to the yanks, that their German Scienist were better than the American ones.
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Message 30
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
i didnt distinguish. sorry, they were all pinched of a german design for a longe range bomber (flying wing shape) that was to nuke new york and washington etc...
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Message 31
Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Wednesday, 18th January 2006
I'm not sure it really matters much what the design of plane was that would have nuked the USA if Nazi Germany had beaten us.... (!) (I need a sort of 'reverse smiley' for this comment!)
ELiza -
Message 32
Posted by Brevabloke (U1685837) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
Actually germans had very little to do with the russian space program. Google Sergei Korolev.
And the Nazi a-bomb efforts were going in completely the wrong direction, AND the Horten flying wing was great but would have been ready maybe 1950 if they were lucky.... -
Message 33
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
I thought the B 1 was based on the Northrop Flying wing, which in turn was based on an earlier Northrop war time design. I know we all pinched a lot of German ideas though. When Russia Spunic into space the Russians remarked to the yanks, that their German Scienist were better than the American ones. Ìý
The prototype Horten flying wing is in pieces in the Smithsonian Fred. Designed by the Horten brothers, two Luftwaffe officers, they built a glider version first to test it, and then a smaller, jet powered version. The design for the bomber version never flew, but the others did.
Northrop built the "flying wing" but before "Fly-by-wire" systems it was too unstable, and so was canned by the USAF. The designers of the B2 did look at the Horten flying wing for inspiration when planning the B2.
Just as a historical note, one of the brothers left Germany after WW2, and ended up in South America. The other one stayed in the post-war Luftwaffe for many years (I think he retired a General, but may be wrong).
Going on to Russia, they did get their hands on some German aircraft designers (and aircraft) after the war, and there is an (unconfirmed)rumour that the MiG 15 (of Korean War fame) was based on a captured German design. You were correct on the Rocket scientists though, most of Von Braun's team ran off to the US after the war, and worked alongside old Wernher at NASA.
DL -
Message 34
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
Arthur, I have never lived in Germany as you have, but I sense modern Germans are quite optimistic about 'eventual outcomes' for the post-Hitler fatherland, which I would greatly hesitate to say it would mean post-Nazi Party. While the Party wouldn't go down without a fight (Hitler or not), it is impossible to say what would happen. Surely the German opposition to Hitler has, according to the record, been tame and uncoordinated at best.
With that said, Hitler's plans for UK were totally evil, and did not stop there.
Without the UK, would the US have been able to defend itself? US invasion was in Hitler's long-term plans.
Such a casual and comfort-centric (?) attitude on such a history is unsettling.
Read up, why don't you.
-Chris in the USÌý
Chris,
Good post, and very interesting to see a US poster discussing WW2 without the "If we'd not fought, you Brits would be speaking German" comment!!!
Incidentally, Arthur, I have lived in Germany also, and Germany in the 21st Century is a very different country and society than the one threatening the UK with invasion. Had we lost the war, the truth is that the world would have been plunged into a dark age, the likes of which can only be imagined in nightmares....
DL -
Message 35
Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
I can't actually think of much. Germans have a higher standard of living than we have. Germans get better pensions than I do. (An 82 year old SS private got the equivalent of £170 in 1994). Europe would be united. If we had lost the war would we, in 2005, have been better off? Ìý
Arthur,
I think you are lost in the late 20th century value system of economic well-being as the only criteria that matters. There are more important issues than the relative size of your pension.
Elistan -
Message 36
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
I can't actually think of much. Germans have a higher standard of living than we have. Germans get better pensions than I do. (An 82 year old SS private got the equivalent of £170 in 1994). Europe would be united. If we had lost the war would we, in 2005, have been better off? Ìý
Arthur,
I think you are lost in the late 20th century value system of economic well-being as the only criteria that matters. There are more important issues than the relative size of your pension.
ElistanÌý
Oh I am going to get some grief for this, but.......
To be perfectly honest Arthur, if your pension is rubbish, well whose fault is that? Given that your pension under Nazi rule would have consisted of a cup of watery cabbage a day, and a black and white stripy suit to wear, which would you prefer.
If your pension leaves you a bit strapped, then maybe a bit of investment earlier in life would have been a good idea?
DL -
Message 37
Posted by Erichsen (U2991919) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
Arthur - I hope you feel invited to discuss your view more. We don't mean to treat you like a punching bag. This is a discussion.
DL - I think if it weren't for both the UK and US, we would 'all be speaking German now', but also need to recognize how Russia played a huge hand in weakening the German army before the invasion of the west began.
The discussion of the timing of special weapons such as long range bombers and the a-bomb is interesting.
Any Germans reading this? Would LOVE to hear what they think on Arthur's question.
-Chris -
Message 38
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 19th January 2006
History channel run every so often a program called Luftwaffe 1946. Worth watching next time round. Covers their flying wing.
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Message 39
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Friday, 20th January 2006
Hi Chris,
This is true, I think I put on a previous thread (about the US's role in the war) that IMO had the US not entered the war, we would actually be speaking Russian now! The Red Army would have beaten the Nazis alone in the end (probably by 46 or 47) due to sheer weight of numbers. The Germans did after all lose 75% of their troops to the Russians, so no doubt they would have won in the end, and marched all the way to the Franco-Spanish border. Mainland Europe would have simply exchanged Nazi rule under Hitler with Communism rule under Stalin (and IMO the jury is still out on who was most deranged out of the two!).
Cheers -
Message 40
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Friday, 20th January 2006
Just noticed your comment on Germans reading,
There are a couple of regular German posters who pop in from time to time.
Thomas B where are you??? -
Message 41
Posted by Brevabloke (U1685837) on Friday, 20th January 2006
Good stuff about the Hortens DL, they were real geniuses with a capital G.
Regarding the advanced designs the germans had, there were a LOT of them that were so advanced it would have been decades before they might have worked properly (and i'm not talking about the mythical flying saucers).
In RV Jones book "The Most Secret War" he contrasts the Nazi development of weapons with the Allied development. Under the Nazis, wild ideas proliferated, good ideas were dumped, bad ideas put into practice because it was essentially a patronage system based on sucking up to the right people.The resulted in a lot of effort on not very useful things; and a few brilliant weapons. Those who did not suck up were dumped even if they had great ideas.
The allies had committees that filtered out the madder ideas and concentrated on mostly sensible things that could be done right now. Thus maximising bang for buck/effort!
all the best,
Scotty -
Message 42
Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Friday, 20th January 2006
Now that is an interesting point re: no US intervention, But I think if the Nazis had only one front, in this case being the East they would have defeated the Soviet Union in WWII.
Considering the rapid advances / gains the Germans made into Russia in 41/42 and how heavily the Soviets rellied on Western help (particularly US), I think the Soviets would of been defeated by 43, particularly if they lost the oil supplys round the Caspian sea / Causcus.
I don't think the Soviets would of had the time or resources to fully utilise their weight of numbers advantage / millitary capability.
For one thing the Germans were arguablly vastly superior during the early stages of Barbrossa and the Eastern campaign and without a Western front, then I think Russia would of fallen to the Germans.
Hi Chris,
This is true, I think I put on a previous thread (about the US's role in the war) that IMO had the US not entered the war, we would actually be speaking Russian now! The Red Army would have beaten the Nazis alone in the end (probably by 46 or 47) due to sheer weight of numbers. The Germans did after all lose 75% of their troops to the Russians, so no doubt they would have won in the end, and marched all the way to the Franco-Spanish border. Mainland Europe would have simply exchanged Nazi rule under Hitler with Communism rule under Stalin (and IMO the jury is still out on who was most deranged out of the two!).
Cheers
Ìý -
Message 43
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Friday, 20th January 2006
Fascinating stuff everyone!
One thing springs to mind, when people say "...we'd all be speaking German/Russian by now" - did the Germans or Soviets have a policy of linguistic assimilation in the countries they invaded? In the eastern bloc countries the Soviets didn't plan to replace the respective national languages with Russian (although most of them were fellow-Slavic langauges, similar to Russian anyway, apart from Hunagarian), but everyone had to learn Russian in school and most could at least converse in it. Is that what people mean when they say we'd all be speaking german/Russian by now if we hadn't won (i.e. as a second language) or do they mean as a first language?
Or am I just looking too deeply into a simple tongue-in-cheek comment...? -
Message 44
Posted by Erichsen (U2991919) on Friday, 20th January 2006
I imagine that any defeated people who were not exterminated would be slaves (labor, servants), so you would be forced to learn the 'master' language.
Maybe the Russian attitude would have been less hostile to other cultures? Dunno.
Also, WOULD the Russian's push all the way to the Channel if they were capable to? And how long would they occupy it? Now that's interesting.
-C -
Message 45
Posted by desertfox (U2819982) on Friday, 20th January 2006
Errrm.....
as for a higher standard of living than us, I'm far from convinced, them joining the Euro has arguably damaged their economy in recent years and doesn't Germany have far higher unemployment than us?Ìý
Well the unemployment is ompletely due to the still recovering East, and the economys gone down because all the stuff in east Geramny is affeting it. -
Message 46
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Friday, 20th January 2006
Re: Message 40.
Yes, THOMAS B, WHERE ARE YOU? -
Message 47
Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Friday, 20th January 2006
Yes, we may not have been speaking German, but we'd certainly be taking orders in it....
Eliza. -
Message 48
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Saturday, 21st January 2006
Now that is an interesting point re: no US intervention, But I think if the Nazis had only one front, in this case being the East they would have defeated the Soviet Union in WWII.
Considering the rapid advances / gains the Germans made into Russia in 41/42 and how heavily the Soviets rellied on Western help (particularly US), I think the Soviets would of been defeated by 43, particularly if they lost the oil supplys round the Caspian sea / Causcus.
I don't think the Soviets would of had the time or resources to fully utilise their weight of numbers advantage / millitary capability.
For one thing the Germans were arguablly vastly superior during the early stages of Barbrossa and the Eastern campaign and without a Western front, then I think Russia would of fallen to the Germans.
Hi Chris,
This is true, I think I put on a previous thread (about the US's role in the war) that IMO had the US not entered the war, we would actually be speaking Russian now! The Red Army would have beaten the Nazis alone in the end (probably by 46 or 47) due to sheer weight of numbers. The Germans did after all lose 75% of their troops to the Russians, so no doubt they would have won in the end, and marched all the way to the Franco-Spanish border. Mainland Europe would have simply exchanged Nazi rule under Hitler with Communism rule under Stalin (and IMO the jury is still out on who was most deranged out of the two!).
Cheers
Ìý Ìý
i dont think your right as the russians had more than just the caucasus for oil supply, and they didnt rely on economic aid to the extent you suggest- for example, they didnt even bother using the shermans we sent ver cos there t-34's were so much better. and added into that that they were outproducing both america and britain by '43. -
Message 49
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Saturday, 21st January 2006
Yes, we may not have been speaking German, but we'd certainly be taking orders in it....
Eliza.Ìý
no we wouldnt meine frunde!
modern strategists reckon that germany couldnt have effectively invaded britain, especially since hitler had designs on russia.... -
Message 50
Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Saturday, 21st January 2006
Do you imagine that Britain would have surrendered then?
Or made peace with Hitler?
Eliza.
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