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Why did the allies choose to invade Italy and didn't invade france in 1943

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Monday, 12th December 2005

  Please help me

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  Posted by WarFanatic (U2676733) on Monday, 12th December 2005

  Your in luck it is something I have been reading about recently. Italy was referred to as the 'soft underbelly' of Hitler's Europe. After the Axis defeat in North Africa, largely to the success of Mongomery's 8th Army, the Italians agreed to surrender so Italy became the next target for the Allied Forces. IT was the largest convoy of ships used, even more than DDay itself, I don't know the figures off the top of me head. Note this is only 1943 so the Allied Powers were not ready for any massed invasion of mainland france yet, especially Britain as Churchill was more concerned with the Mediterranean.
  However, what must be noted is that it was Sicily that was imperative for liberation before any attempt for the mainland can be taken place. This is because although the German forces had retreated to Sicily it would provide a useful stepping stone into Italy. But more of a benefit was that the airfields of this Island and Lower Italy. As they would provide useful bases for the RAF and US Planes to strike right at the heart of Germany: Rhineland, where its industial centre was. The aim was to try and reduce the German War machine in order to hinder its production of its forces to try and turn the tide of Barbarossa as well as the opposition in France.
  In summary, Italy was a key target for Allied Forces, although the progress was slow, see Monte Cassino for example where it took 3/4 massed military efforts to finally dislodge the Germans. Remember if the allied forces were successful in invading Italy they could have a path into occupied Europe.

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  Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Monday, 12th December 2005

  I find this a confusing one.
  We weren't ready to go attack France and the reasons for attacking Italy included.
  
  Take it out of the war.
  Gain some airbases.
  
  But it was a dead end, Italy ends at the Alps and there's no way the allies could have fought through them.
  
  Another point is that some of the allies best troops were, I think tied up here so weren't involved in Normandy.

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  Posted by Mark (U1347077) on Monday, 12th December 2005

  There was considerable disagreement - mainly with the US wanting an assault directly on France and the UK an indirect attack. Churchill always liked side-operations but was probably correct. The western allies were not ready for an Overlord-style Operation but needed to keep up the momentum in 1943, especially with the Russians insisting on an attack.
  
  The Allies probably failed to foresee how fast the Germans would move. In planning the operation, it is possible the Allies thought Italy would collapse and then they would be most of the way up to the Alps. Italy did surrender but the Germans were prepared and swiftly occupied the country meaning a hard fight instead.

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  Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Monday, 12th December 2005

  Rply to WarFanatic
  I'm not so sure that during the invasion of sicily the number of the allied ships were larger from those in normandy.dont forget that during the invasion of normandy there were 7000 ships.
  
  But there is something I cant understand,why didn't the allies attacked germany from the south?
  And what was the advantage to make inavsion to italy first and not in france? Your in luck it is something I have been reading about recently. Italy was referred to as the 'soft underbelly' of Hitler's Europe. After the Axis defeat in North Africa, largely to the success of Mongomery's 8th Army, the Italians agreed to surrender so Italy became the next target for the Allied Forces. IT was the largest convoy of ships used, even more than DDay itself, I don't know the figures off the top of me head. Note this is only 1943 so the Allied Powers were not ready for any massed invasion of mainland france yet, especially Britain as Churchill was more concerned with the Mediterranean.
  However, what must be noted is that it was Sicily that was imperative for liberation before any attempt for the mainland can be taken place. This is because although the German forces had retreated to Sicily it would provide a useful stepping stone into Italy. But more of a benefit was that the airfields of this Island and Lower Italy. As they would provide useful bases for the RAF and US Planes to strike right at the heart of Germany: Rhineland, where its industial centre was. The aim was to try and reduce the German War machine in order to hinder its production of its forces to try and turn the tide of Barbarossa as well as the opposition in France.
  In summary, Italy was a key target for Allied Forces, although the progress was slow, see Monte Cassino for example where it took 3/4 massed military efforts to finally dislodge the Germans. Remember if the allied forces were successful in invading Italy they could have a path into occupied Europe.Β 

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  Posted by WarFanatic (U2676733) on Monday, 12th December 2005

  Attacking Germany from the south required occupation and invasion of Italy, especially considering Italy was underneath Germany. It was exepected as previously mentioned to be an easy win, hence a 'soft underbelly' as the Italians weren't highly regarded for its fighting ability - note its campaigns in North Africa - compared to the Germans.
  
  Italy was a prime target because after Allied Victories in North Africa and the Axis wirhdrawal to Sicily, why not press home the advantage?
  
  Furthermore, I am fully aware of the DDay landings being on a large military scale but the Italian was larger but the I won't be able to get the figures for a few more hours.

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  Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Monday, 12th December 2005

  But I think that the allies could attack germany from france or holland or belgum.
  Italy has not a military target I think the allies wanted to show themselvs that they can attack germany at its own terrytory.And also the allies could invade germany if they transported troops from north africa to malta or cyprus.
  Dont you think Attacking Germany from the south required occupation and invasion of Italy, especially considering Italy was underneath Germany. It was exepected as previously mentioned to be an easy win, hence a 'soft underbelly' as the Italians weren't highly regarded for its fighting ability - note its campaigns in North Africa - compared to the Germans.
  
  Italy was a prime target because after Allied Victories in North Africa and the Axis wirhdrawal to Sicily, why not press home the advantage?
  
  Furthermore, I am fully aware of the DDay landings being on a large military scale but the Italian was larger but the I won't be able to get the figures for a few more hours. Β 

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  Posted by WarFanatic (U2676733) on Monday, 12th December 2005

  Remember if its still 1943 France,Belgium and Holland haven't been liberated yet, or even attempted to. So it was impossible for the allies to launch an offensive into Germany because DDay doesn't happen until 6th June 1944.
  
  I agree about your idea that the Allies wanted to invade Italy in order to prove to the Germans that they were defeatable. The same was with the battle of Stalingrad. But the primary purpose was to occupy the airfields in order to lauch bombing runs into Germany.

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  Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Monday, 12th December 2005

  Its interesting to speak with you.
  So if the allies wanted to take the airfields to launch an air offensives over germany what astrategy did the allies have? Remember if its still 1943 France,Belgium and Holland haven't been liberated yet, or even attempted to. So it was impossible for the allies to launch an offensive into Germany because DDay doesn't happen until 6th June 1944.
  
  I agree about your idea that the Allies wanted to invade Italy in order to prove to the Germans that they were defeatable. The same was with the battle of Stalingrad. But the primary purpose was to occupy the airfields in order to lauch bombing runs into Germany.Β 

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  Posted by WarFanatic (U2676733) on Monday, 12th December 2005

  How do you mean which strategy did they use? Do you mean which strategy was undertaken with regards to bombing missions? If so the general one was fly to the target during the cover of darkness to avoid detection. This is of course before the bombing squadron are briefed on the mission objectives - this mainly to bomb a certain target which may be of use to the enemy and of benefit to the Allies. Such targets include bridges, warehouses, railways and many others. Such targets were in vast supply leading up to and after DDAay where by the RAF were able to hinder any German movement. Its amazing what you can do with total air supremecy!

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  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Tuesday, 13th December 2005

  Dear War fanatic,
  
  You mentioned somewhere that the Allied forces wanted to take over Italy to use bases there to bomb Germany's industrial facilities in the Rhineland.
  
  Ok, having written a report on the 1945-1955 German economic miracle I had read tons of material on Germany of that era.
  
  Ok, me refresh my memory? After the end of WWII, after millions of bombs dropped on the Nazis, and the extensive destruction of most German cities and infrastructure (roads, railways) ... the 95% of Germany's industrial facilities remained intact!!! The 5% that was damaged was done so as a co-lateral loss... i.e. bombed accidentaly. It was all with the British-US policy of bombing houses and infrastructure but keep Hitler's considerable industry up and going in order to help quickly West Germany to become a financially strong (financially stronger than England as English diplomats preferred) nation and thus to turn the local population from "militarism" to "capitalism". Had they had other plans? Germany would become nothing more than a rather rural place of average to bad economy but then someone had to take over the production of non-military products since American, English and French industries were military oriented. A similar policy was followed for Japan.

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• Message 12

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  Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Tuesday, 13th December 2005

  Rply to war fanatic
  I just cant understand what kind of strategy did the allies use when they chose italy as the best options and didnt looked for the shortest route to germany?
  How do you mean which strategy did they use? Do you mean which strategy was undertaken with regards to bombing missions? If so the general one was fly to the target during the cover of darkness to avoid detection. This is of course before the bombing squadron are briefed on the mission objectives - this mainly to bomb a certain target which may be of use to the enemy and of benefit to the Allies. Such targets include bridges, warehouses, railways and many others. Such targets were in vast supply leading up to and after DDAay where by the RAF were able to hinder any German movement. Its amazing what you can do with total air supremecy!Β 

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  Posted by billy the ball (U2740765) on Tuesday, 13th December 2005

  I'm in the process of reading 'The turn of the tide' -the second volume of (Chief of General Staff)Gen.Allanbroke's War Memoirs and he was quite clear about what the Italian campaign was supposed to achieve.
  The thing is the Germans had excellent East to West communications and in the event of an invasion of Northwestern Europe divisions could be shifted from the eastern front with comparative ease but the North to South communictations where much slower.Some fifty German divisions were tied up covering the southern boundary of the Reich and due to the Alps and lack of high-speed road and rail communications (apart from air) they could not be speedily redeployed.The presence of these divisions meant the lack of them on the eastern front was sufficient to keep the German armies on the back foot and they weren't immediately available to attack the Normandy invasion in the critical first few weeks.Hitler's insistence on never conceding territory guaranteed they would stand and fight on the other side of the Alps.
  The presence of Allied troops was necessary in the Mediterranean to defend the Middle East and its oil reserves and if they were in Italy they woudl also be engaging the Germans.
  Also the effect on the political situation in southern Europe should be considered.The presence of these Allied troops served to encourage insurrection in the Balkans and it was hoped that Turkey would be inclined to enter the war on the Allied side.

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  Posted by WarFanatic (U2676733) on Wednesday, 14th December 2005

  Dear E_Nikolaos_E
  
  My knowledge doesn't extend to the actual figures or experiences or even successes of Allied Bombing in Germany. I was merely stating that one of the reasons for the Italian campaign was certainly to allow allied bombers the opportunity to bomb in the industrial side of Germany. I didn't know they were unsuccessful at it and it is interesting to know. Out if interest was German Economy effected by Allied Bombers at all, not just in Germany but in Occupied Territories? As I know there was a large amount of bombing in France, especially in the early hours of June 6th 1944 and before it.

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  Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Wednesday, 14th December 2005

  Rply to WarFanatic
  So do you want to say that all the strategy air offensive over germany was a fali tactic? Dear E_Nikolaos_E
  
  My knowledge doesn't extend to the actual figures or experiences or even successes of Allied Bombing in Germany. I was merely stating that one of the reasons for the Italian campaign was certainly to allow allied bombers the opportunity to bomb in the industrial side of Germany. I didn't know they were unsuccessful at it and it is interesting to know. Out if interest was German Economy effected by Allied Bombers at all, not just in Germany but in Occupied Territories? As I know there was a large amount of bombing in France, especially in the early hours of June 6th 1944 and before it.Β 

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  Posted by Big Lad (U1949096) on Saturday, 24th December 2005

  Following on from #13 - I would like to add that Greece too was liberated, alongside the Balkan region, and also encouraged to rise up against the German invaders. The US and the Brits sure kept them Krauts busy down by the Med, before swinging north or is it left, with General Paton and Gen.Bradley.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

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