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Most Remarkable Battlefield victory
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by WarFanatic (U2676733) on Wednesday, 7th December 2005
What do you believe to be the most outstanding battlefield victory ever? And why was that? was it because they managed to win against impossible odds etc.
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Message 2
Posted by Rule_Britannia (U2429840) on Wednesday, 7th December 2005
i think it will have to be the battle of Waterloo.
they were massivly outnumbered, even more when many of the duthch and belgium troops fled, cannon and cavelry were constantly coming at them and it was amazing that the prussians even managed to arrive. so this has to be the greatest victory. -
Message 3
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Wednesday, 7th December 2005
i think it will have to be the battle of Waterloo.
they were massivly outnumbered, even more when many of the duthch and belgium troops fled, cannon and cavelry were constantly coming at them and it was amazing that the prussians even managed to arrive. so this has to be the greatest victory.Μύ
brirtan_rules: You are of course joking. They were not outnumbered. If you follow the battle closely you will see it was the arrival of the Prussins that won the battle.
I have to say the battle of Cannae. Hannible's great victory over the Romans. It was the first use of the "Double envelopment." And in his case he was outnumbered and yet he succeeded in surrounding the Romans. -
Message 4
Posted by Rule_Britannia (U2429840) on Wednesday, 7th December 2005
i never said the prussians werent the ones that saved the battle but for most of the day this combined army was forced to feel the brunt of Nepolians army, as an example, when nepolians cavelry was swarming round the spuares of infantry, all it could have taken was for one spuare to collapse and the bulk of the army could have been abialated.i admit it might not have been the greatest of victories now i think about it but it has to be in the top ten at least.
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Message 5
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Wednesday, 7th December 2005
WarFanatic,
I'll not give a long list this time, however first quick response Battle of France 1940.
The sheer speed and tactical brilliance of the German advance caught everyone on the hop.
Cheers AA.
P.S. I may have to think some more as there are at least two honourable mentions, Assaye and Aliwal. -
Message 6
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Wednesday, 7th December 2005
Agincourt springs to mind. Pretty ruthless stuff, but thats war. Good tactics and a lot of common sense defeated a superior French force.
Or how about that old chestnut Bannockburn?? Fantastic achievement for the Scots, major embarrassment if you're English. Don't hear a great deal about it in English Schools. I wonder why??
There's actually quite a few, but as always, a lot comes down to personal opinion. Waterloo was a decisive and important victory, but the Prussian input tends to be overlooked in general. Very unfair in my opinion.
This could develop into an interesting thread. -
Message 7
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Wednesday, 7th December 2005
In the U.S. during the Civil War, the 45,000 man Army of Northern Virginia routed a 105,000 man Army of the Patomic at Chancelorsville.
And I have always felt that Kursk ended Germany, not the west. -
Message 8
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Thursday, 8th December 2005
I have to vote for Cannae. Outnumbered, miles from home, against the biggest single army the Romans ever put into the field. Hannibal's tactics are still studied and admired today. He didn't just win, he destroyed them.
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Message 9
Posted by Mark (U1347077) on Thursday, 8th December 2005
Probably not the greatest of all-time but a couple of great victories:
Blenheim - Allied forces under Marlborough and Eugene defeated a previously unbeated French army and changed the course of the War of Spanish Succession, thereby altering European history.
Western Desert Force in Libya - 30,000 British (inc Empire) beat 300,000 Italians. Failure could have meant Suez in Egyptian hands at the end of 1940.
Alesia - few armies could survive being attacked from the front and rear yet Caesar's Romans defeated the Gauls.
Plassey - for numbers Clive had 800 Europeans and 2200 Indians whereas Siraj-ud-doula had about 50,000. More of a battle won with money than arms but all's fair... -
Message 10
Posted by WarFanatic (U2676733) on Thursday, 8th December 2005
With regards to the Italian defeat in Libyait could be said thqat during the second world war massive italian defeats is quite a common thing. Especially in North Africa where the British Army had to worry about the thousands of pows than the enemy. Italian retreats were quite a common thing and it makes you wonder why on earth did they join the war! Although the obvious reason is because it wanted to be a fascist empire. Its attempts to enlarge its already minimal empire in North Africa was indeed a failure.
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Message 11
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Thursday, 8th December 2005
assaye was a great victory, no doubt, but the mahrattas army wasnt what youd call high quality, when more than 60000 of its number were nothing more than raiders.
i reckon the 1453 seige of constantinople, despite the less than amazing (direct) reason for its fall, is a remarkable victory, since its walls were the strongest in all europe, and even though dramatically ounumbered, the romans 8000 ( i think) men where heavily armed, and had an amazing defensive position. mehmed deserved the title "the conqueror" i think -
Message 12
Posted by clankylad (U1778100) on Friday, 9th December 2005
I'd go for Chancellorsville. It's just a brilliant example of an aggressive commander taking the initiative against an opponent and pummelling him, despite an unpromising tactical position.
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Message 13
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Friday, 9th December 2005
Not the greatest, certainly, but one of them: Dunbar, 1650. Cromwell's army was underfed, sickness-ridden and, with only about half it's troops 'active' (IIRC), still managed to crush a far larger, fresher Scottish Army on its home soil. Probably the most outstanding battlefield victory of the British Civil Wars, anyway.
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Message 14
Posted by DANNY-FRANKS (U2186615) on Saturday, 10th December 2005
Battle of the Metaurus River in 207BC when Consul Nero forced marched some of his men to defeat Hannibals brother Hasdrubal who was bringing reinforcements to Italy. He outmanoevred and defeated Hasdrubal before returning his men back to the main Roman army before Hannibal realised they were missing. It was the death knell for Hannibals plan of defeating Rome. But Consul Nero is eclipsed by his imperial namesake. As Byron wrote: When the name of Nero is heard who thinks of the consul?
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Message 15
Posted by Mark (U2073932) on Sunday, 11th December 2005
Salamanca 1812. Wellington defeated 40,000 men in 40 minutes. Or so they say!
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Message 16
Posted by U1969296 (U1969296) on Sunday, 11th December 2005
Hi
Perhaps a lone voice The Israeli defeat of the Egyptian Army at the Suez Canel Crossing in 1973 and the 1967 Sinai campaign 5/8 June massive defeats over te Egyptians What do you believe to be the most outstanding battlefield victory ever? And why was that? was it because they managed to win against impossible odds etc.
Μύ -
Message 17
Posted by banjoedjoe (U2622639) on Monday, 12th December 2005
Re Kursk. Since the ending of the cold war, there has been a revision of this battle. This essay is pretty interesting in debunking some of the myths.
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Message 18
Posted by Mark (U1347077) on Monday, 12th December 2005
Kursk - interesting but I don't see how it can be a minor tactical battle over the course of a week and thousands of square miles. If the figures are accurate and Prokhorovka was a relatively small clash, then where were the rest of the German armoured forces? Perhaps Prokhorovka itself was relatively small but it was part of the German attempt to regain the strategic initiative in 1943 with Operation Citadel.
Sicily was hardly insignificant and German forces were transfered from the East.
The Russians apparently tried to launch a pre-emptive aerial attack but it failed - any idea why? -
Message 19
Posted by Thjodolf (U1900675) on Monday, 12th December 2005
Cannae - for some of the above mentioned reasons; Hannibal effectively ambushed a larger army on a treeless plain in broad daylight - not bad*
Trasimene - another masterpiece by the great Carthaginian*
* Quite whether any of the Roman generals would be proud of their efforts is another matter!
Agincourt - considering how completely out manouvred Henry had been leading up to the battle, the apparent scale of the victory was remarkable
Mohi/Sajo/Tiszla - various names for Subodai's annhiliation of the Hungarian army; a sublime masterpiece of the great man's career -
Message 20
Posted by mluo2010 (U2734079) on Monday, 12th December 2005
It almost makes you feel sorry for the Romans at Cannae, hadn't they learned not to attack Hannibal after their defeats during the past 2 years? I don't think you could call it an ambush though. He let the Romans push back his center, then attacked the rear with his cavalry, which had just finished wiping out the inferior Roman cavalry.
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Message 21
Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Wednesday, 14th December 2005
I think that the most remarkble battles were the landings on normandy[opreaion overlord]and the allied invasion to north africa[opreaion torch].
Why normandy? because the all may 1944 the allies did outstanding intel work and prevented from the germans from recognize where was the invasion.
And why the invasion to north africa?
Because first of all it was the first american offensive of the war aginst germany and secendly it ensured the end of the "africa korps" -
Message 22
Posted by Mad Bollie (U2306897) on Friday, 16th December 2005
How about, Alexander the Great at Issus.
Or Rorke's Drift. -
Message 23
Posted by Brevabloke (U1685837) on Monday, 19th December 2005
The Battle of Milne Bay, a little known WW2 action that was the first defeat on land for the Japanese forces.
Anf the assualt on Fort Eban-Emaile??? by the german glider troops was just stunning - so few defeating so many in such a short time!! Mind you I am biased as an ex-glider pilot..... -
Message 24
Posted by Lord Ball (U1767246) on Monday, 19th December 2005
Technically, you can't call them victories but Dunkirk and the retreat from Rangoon were the greatest military operations ever launched in my opinion.
Still not a victory technically, Battle of Tebourba involving 2nd Hampshires. Splendid show of how to fight a battle against all the odds. -
Message 25
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Monday, 19th December 2005
I'd go for Solway Moss. Fought in 1542, about 18,000 Scots tried to invade England via Carlisle. The English warden responded by attacking with 3,000 cavalry. The Scots were caught off-guard and no-one really knew who was in charge. The terrain hampered their numerical advantage, and after a briefish skirmish the Scottish army fled. Some 1200 Scots were captured including 2 earls and 5 lords. The Scots also lost all theri baggage and artillery. King James V died soon after and the whole invasion fell apart.
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Message 26
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 19th December 2005
Technically, you can't call them victories but Dunkirk and the retreat from Rangoon were the greatest military operations ever launched in my opinion.
Still not a victory technically, Battle of Tebourba involving 2nd Hampshires. Splendid show of how to fight a battle against all the odds.Μύ
same sort of thing this is-the last stand of charles 1sts blue coats at naseby (?-cant actually remember the two's and throes of the battle) -
Message 27
Posted by Aiden (U1707544) on Tuesday, 20th December 2005
Stalingrad and the Battle of Britain where survival was victory.
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Message 28
Posted by itsneverfloppy (U1753142) on Tuesday, 20th December 2005
How can you class one battle over another. There have been some fantastic battles and tactical decisions in some may have been better than others. However, I can only imagine (through Call of Duty and Medal of Honour games) what my Grandads and their mates went through, and of course what all the others have been through over the years!!
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Message 29
Posted by Brevabloke (U1685837) on Tuesday, 20th December 2005
Not being deliberatly controversial, but although the Battle of Britain was a magnificent moment for the people of the UK, I thought I had recently read that;
a) it wasn't a clear cut victory, but a good enough draw
b) The Royal Navy had it covered anyway (the invasion that is). -
Message 30
Posted by desertfox (U2819982) on Saturday, 24th December 2005
I dont agree the royal navy knew it would have been suicide to engage the Germans in the channel against hundrds of bombers with practically no air cover. They would have been wiped out.
And as for a battle, the siege of Tobruk was immense, lots of Tired British and coomonwealth troops repeatedly beat back a larger Africa Korps force under Rommel. Or the one were Napoleon took a fort by paratroops, before the plane was invented, using hot air ballons. Not being deliberatly controversial, but although the Battle of Britain was a magnificent moment for the people of the UK, I thought I had recently read that;
a) it wasn't a clear cut victory, but a good enough draw
b) The Royal Navy had it covered anyway (the invasion that is). Μύ -
Message 31
Posted by Huscarl (U1753368) on Tuesday, 27th December 2005
Cannae(216bc)- 50,000 out of 80,000 Roman troops were slaughtered by Hannibal's multi-national army in a well-planned pincer movement and feinted centre 'retreat'.
Brunanburh(937)- King Athelstan leads c.18,000 Wessex and Mercian troops to a brutal and devastating day's victory over an invading coalition of c.18,000 Norsemen, Scots(of various 'tribes') Jorvik and Irish Vikings.
Stamford Bridge(1066)- King Harold II wins a bloody and pyrrhic victory over a ferocious Norwegian army under the renowned King Harald Hardrada, wiping out over 90% of their army in a day-long bloodbath.
Agincourt(1415)- Henry V's amazing victory over 25-30,000 French, with only 4000 longbowmen and 1000 men-at-arms, all were disease-ridden, starving and demoralised English and Welshmen. -
Message 32
Posted by Erik Lindsay (U231970) on Tuesday, 27th December 2005
I do not see how you can fail to include Midway in this listing. It was not a land battle, but it was nevertheless a battle of numerically inferior forces against an enemy not only quantitatively superior, but qualitatively superior as well.
Reflect: The Japanese had 4 a/c carriers vs 3 US ones, the Zero fighter had a greater range, more firepower, was superior in just about every way to the US F4F (Wildcat), the torpedo bombers and dive bombers were better than the US types. Most of the US pilots had never been in combat before and had about 200 hours flight time. By contrast, the Japanese pilots were superb. They had a minimum of 800 hours in the air and all were combat veterans. Even the weapons used by the Japanese were better. The US torpedoes ran so slowly that they could be dodged even by the huge carriers, and when they hit, they often didn't explode...the Japanese torpedo was an engineering marvel that ran more than twice as fast as the US type, had a range of more than 23,000 metres and had a warhead containing more than 700 Kg of TNT that exploded when it hit.
The Japanese had every advantage, yet they lost 4 of their front-line carriers and all the highly-trained, experienced pilots and ground crew. It was a major turning point in the Pacific War, and I still have difficulty understanding how the Japanese managed to lose.
It has very rightly been called ''The Incredible Victory''. -
Message 33
Posted by Ijeomaodigwe (U2790958) on Friday, 30th December 2005
All I can say is that all the battles mentioned are remarkarbly great. These are all great battles that you guys keep on forcing me to change my mind.
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Message 34
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Saturday, 31st December 2005
assaye, salamanca, cannae are the only ones i can think of at the moment that are victories, but im pretty pooped through having to get up in the morning for once. lol^_^
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Message 35
Posted by Brevabloke (U1685837) on Tuesday, 3rd January 2006
Forgot Midway - some see it as a miracle so it must be up there. Disagree Zero vs Wildcat: lots of US and Allied pilots survived because the Grumman was built like a brick outhouse!
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Message 36
Posted by Little Enos Rides Again (U1777880) on Tuesday, 3rd January 2006
I do not see how you can fail to include Midway in this listing. It was not a land battle, but it was nevertheless a battle of numerically inferior forces against an enemy not only quantitatively superior, but qualitatively superior as well.
Reflect: The Japanese had 4 a/c carriers vs 3 US ones, the Zero fighter had a greater range, more firepower, was superior in just about every way to the US F4F (Wildcat), the torpedo bombers and dive bombers were better than the US types. Most of the US pilots had never been in combat before and had about 200 hours flight time. By contrast, the Japanese pilots were superb. They had a minimum of 800 hours in the air and all were combat veterans. Even the weapons used by the Japanese were better. The US torpedoes ran so slowly that they could be dodged even by the huge carriers, and when they hit, they often didn't explode...the Japanese torpedo was an engineering marvel that ran more than twice as fast as the US type, had a range of more than 23,000 metres and had a warhead containing more than 700 Kg of TNT that exploded when it hit.
The Japanese had every advantage, yet they lost 4 of their front-line carriers and all the highly-trained, experienced pilots and ground crew. It was a major turning point in the Pacific War, and I still have difficulty understanding how the Japanese managed to lose.
It has very rightly been called ''The Incredible Victory''.Μύ
I agree that Midway was a massive victory and a turning point in the Pacific War however to answer Erik's point of "I still have difficulty understanding how the Japanese managed to lose."
My understanding is that a major factor in the US victory was that the American's had broken the Japanese communication codes at that time (similar to the British and the Enigma Code) and hence they knew where the Japanese fleet was and where the Japanese intended to attack etc. Didn't the Americans also decoy / bluff the Japanese into attacking certain areas? -
Message 37
Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Monday, 20th February 2006
I know (or at least this is what I've been told and I hope it's not the myth) the American's had found a lot of Japanese coded signals pointing to an island which was thought to be Midway and they sent an uncoded message which the Japanese reported back to HQ and bingo, that information was carried in the message so Midway the Americans knew was the target. Also (and I hope this too is not part of the myth) the Japanese had trouble launching recon seaplanes to seek out the US fleet and whilst they were deciding whether to attack the fleet or Midway island again the US strike force turned up and decimated the greatest carrier strike force prior to the US fleet off Iwo Jima.
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