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SEE BRITISH MERCENARIES KILL CIVILIANS

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by jaggedpanther1 (U2613937) on Monday, 28th November 2005

  SEE BRITISH MERCENARIES KILL IRAQI CIVILIANS FOR FUN, THIS VIDEO WAS MADE BY AEGIS DEFENSE SERVICES, A COMPANY HIRED BY TONY BLAIR TO PROVIDE SECURITY IN IRAQ
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  NEWS LINKS REGARDING THIS VIDEO
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by U1645144 (U1645144) on Monday, 28th November 2005

  <<<<<<<<<<<<, A COMPANY HIRED BY TONY BLAIR TO PROVIDE SECURITY IN IRAQ>>>>>>>>>
  
  
  
  Actually I also blame Tony Blair for the snow and the persistent rain which we had to endure over the weekend.
  
  
  
  
  

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 28th November 2005

  Shocking stuff
  
  Then again, what do you expect from mercenaries? They aren't exactly hired for being nice friendly people are they?
  
  I suppose you're now going to say that mercenaries are a good representative of the UK, its government and its foreign policy?
  
  Nothing like whipping up a bit of hate on a Monday afternoon is there.
  Since this is the history messageboard, why have you posted it here?
  
  

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Monday, 28th November 2005

  DL,
  
  As one of the prime movers in the invasion the UK is morally responsible for the wayward actions happening there. If this video is genuine it ranks along the toleration of un-official militia by the Iraqi government. The problem is verifying it.
  
  Not in our name indeed.
  
  It should really be on the Newa Boards though.

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Monday, 28th November 2005

  Dark,
  
  I have to echo your sentiments. Have just watched the video and it shocked me to the core, and beleive me it takes a lot for that to happen. I might not have seen as much as you have but being part of the MTV generation it does take a lot to shock me and this did it.
  
  However, Mercenaries are not representative of any country. Hired guns are always going to be unpredictable, there is no comeback for them, no chain of command, no MP's chasing their tails back to barracks.
  People who become hired guns cannot always be the full shilling? I mean these are people who willingly, for cash, fight in fights that they chose.
  Soldiers are disiplined, they have no choices, they are instruments first of their superiors and then the politicians, they are always accountable. I have many friends who are either serving or retired soldiers, airmen and marines, and while my friends in the RM and my retired friend from the RWF are slightly, shall we say, gung ho, this sort of stunt would have them itching to teach the Merc's what happens when their luck runs out.
  
  Sorry rant over, but this stuff is sick!
  
  Merc's? They are only accountable to the bullet that finally catches them

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 29th November 2005

  Hi Rich,
  
  Agreed totally! The mercenary's job may not be the oldest profession, but I'd guess it is the second oldest. They are not accountable to any government, nor to any rules of war, whereas soldiers are. To use these characters in a theatre of war is not a government action, and I can not really see how the UK government can be held liable for the actions of what can only be called murdering scumbags. I'd be interested to know what action will be taken against those responsible.
  
  I came across a fair few of them in Bosnia, and they were basically either there for the money, or there just for kicks. Sick, but then people are. To use the actions of these twisted individuals for political gain however, is IMO wrong.
  
  Cheers
  DL

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Tuesday, 29th November 2005

  DL,
  
  Yes, but how do you answer the point that the British and US are the prevailing military powers. They sanction the use of mercenaries, they created the situation, so they are responsible.

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 29th November 2005

  My guess would be that the mercenaries are there in the employ of some corporate entity. If you're talking about the ethics of whether we should be in Iraq, then that is a different matter, and we should remember that whatever your views, the government of Iraq is in charge of their own capital, so do you consider them to be partially liable too?
  
  I'm sorry, but I cannot agree that our government can be held responsible for the outrageous acts of some sick individuals. That is basically collective responsibility, and if you apply this rule to all acts of terror and outrage(which these shootings are), then Saudi Arabia is equally as responsible for every murder carried out in the name of Osama bin Laden. The government are not responsible for the actions of every single person. Blair and co are responsible for a lot of stupid acts, and they walked into Iraq with their eyes wide shut, for a highly dubious cause, but I can't see how this is their responsibility.
  
  DL

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by DaveMBA (U1360771) on Tuesday, 29th November 2005

  For corporate entity, try Halliburton, the prime beneficiary from the invasion of Iraq. The subject of mercenaries was well-covered in the Sunday Telegraph about a month ago - basically, the scheme is to protect the oil assets and the rest of the country can go hang. It was widely predicted in the run up to the invasion - all that is needed now is for the country to break up.
  
  The mercenaries are not the responsibility of the US/UK governments, but they have created the conditions, where this is going on. They also retain the responsibility of trying their own citizens for crimes, if the Iraqis courts cannot deal with them. Of course, it is easier to put Saddam in trial.

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Tuesday, 29th November 2005

  I have to agree with DaveMBA.
  
  The US/UK could stop these private operators if they wanted to. This is not the same as the Saudis and Bin Laden. The Saudis want to stop Al Qaeda, but are not very good at doing it.
  
  This is an entirely separate debate to the one over whether we should have invaded, but about responsibilty for post invasion policies.

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 29th November 2005

  Tim,
  
  If the "security company" responsible was in fact under contract to a corporation, then I seriously doubt that the US will want to intervene. They did after all, allocate the "rebuilding contracts" out unilaterally. I still don't accept that the government has to accept responsibility for these sick individuals, regardless of any post-invasion policy. Just out of interest, is being a mercenary an illegal act in itself?
  
  So we are actually talking about UK policy in Iraq then, not just this incident! I am not going to play devils advocate in that respect, since my view is that we should never have HAD to go into Iraq in 2003, and there are two reasons why we did. One is oil. No doubt about that. Securing future oil supplies was the primary reason for invading Iraq. The second was the fact that Bush senior made a massive error in ordering the ceasefire in the first Gulf War, and leaving the job half-done. An invasion of Iraq to depose Saddam in 91 would have had massive international backing, and there were large contingents from Islamic nations involved, which would have ruled out the "jihad" element from the conflict. The solution to Iraq, well, I doubt there is one. Personally, I feel that the US and UK should be replaced by a "stabilisation force" as we saw in Bosnia in 95 consisting of Islamic troops. Again, this would defuse the "jihad" element which is so successful in recruiting idiots to blow themselves (and a few dozen civilians) up.
  However, since the prolonged occupation is IMO really about securing oil, this is never going to happen.
  
  DL

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Tuesday, 29th November 2005

  DL,
  
  I am no lawyer, but mercenaries are of dubious legality. They have been illegal on the high seas since Letters of Marque(spelling ?) were made illegal 120 years or so ago, banning privateers (not quite the same as mercenaries).
  
  I was against the invasion, but that is different to post invasion policy. I think we have no choice but to stay. Leaving now would be disastrous. Incidents like this are making enemies by the minute.
  
  Presumably these people were hired by a private company, but the state must accept responsibility for a policy that allows this. In Iraq the state is still, effectively, the US or UK. I find it shocking that what are, effectively, small independent military units can be allowed in any country.
  
  It may be that the difference in culture between the US and UK has helped create this situation. The US allows private armed guards, un-thinkable in the UK.

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by Lord Ball (U1767246) on Tuesday, 29th November 2005

  Looking at those videos, seeing the speed those vehicles were approaching you could forgive the security contractors for thinking they were suicide bombers.

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