Wars and ConflictsΜύ permalink
Stalin-the true cost
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by siberiansniper (U2573777) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005
Good evening everybody.
I have been wondering about how many soviet people died as a direct result of Stalins political paranorer. I have seen figures that seem both too high and low ranging from 0 to 100,000. It is clear the black book of communism is biased and not a well researched history.
So does anybody have a true idea of the cost? -
Message 2
Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005
Hi
I can promise you that it was more then 30 milion men.
but most of them are result of world war two.
why did you ask about it? -
Message 3
Posted by siberiansniper (U2573777) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
I am interested as there seems to be no definate figure. There is also the problem of finding non-biased sources.
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Message 4
Posted by DANNY-FRANKS (U2186615) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
Stalin was responsible for deaths of at least thousands from the officer purge of the Army in the 30s to forcible removal of ethnic tribes believed loyal to the Germans in WW2 plus those interned as political prisoners. Unfortunately when deaths get on such a scale it becomes impossible to keep tabs on the amount and it is all too easy to generalise and add noughts. The true cost will never be known and will fade into a statistical distant memory/irrelevance as time passes.
DF -
Message 5
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
Hi all,
This quote says it all really...
"One man's death is a tragedy, ten thousand men's deaths are statistics"
Josef Vissarionovich Stalin. -
Message 6
Posted by hallamhal (U2549864) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
you mean 'one MILLION dead is a statistic
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Message 7
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Friday, 25th November 2005
I stand corrected.
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Message 8
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Friday, 25th November 2005
DL,
Im case with Dzugashvili more correct is to change the figure in his own saying to 'millions'. -
Message 9
Posted by The Researcher Strikes Back (U2183402) on Friday, 25th November 2005
I found this page. I don't know whether it helps. It doesn't deal with Stalin alone, but there is a discussion of the numbers, including high and low estimates.
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Message 10
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Friday, 25th November 2005
Personally,
I thought the figure was in the tens of millions just for the "Great Terror" period in the 1930s, even before taking WW2 into account. I doubt that the true figure will ever be known, especially those who just disappeared into the Gulag, and were never seen again.
DL -
Message 11
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Friday, 25th November 2005
Re: Message 9.
Researcher,
thank you very much for this excellent (in my humble opinion) website.
It's an aside. But I use it in the perspective of another thread from DL: "Intolerance- Man's true nature?"
How horrifying the reading of all these numbers may be and I am not belittling the horror of the list, but to put it in the right context of the history, again IMO. Some people are saying about the 20th century, look: the bloodiest century of all, with the most atrocious conflicts.
I only want to give one example: the "Thirty Years War". There it is said by historians that at the end of the war, (1648? Have to seek it back.) nearly one third of all people in the war region were dead. Originally I said killed by religious wars, but Beldo Fernandez corrected me. It had also to do with the competition between the several "wordly" factions and the wrecking of the economy, famine and diseases created by all this. And he was right.
The point I want to emphasize is that in history there were as much atrocities in great numbers as today, not to say more, if you stick to numbers in percent of the population involved.
And some would perhaps say that for instance the numbers of the peasants, not educated, nearly cattle between their cattle don't count in the figures, but then and now they were humans as every baron and they had potentially as much brain or perhaps more than said baron, again IMO. The same for a poor rural Chinese, killed by an intellectual Japanese in the advent of WWII. Or a Commonwealth Indian from the countryside dying in WWI counts as much IMO as his higly educated British counterpart from the motherland. In fact I find it very decent that near Abbeville there is a war cemetery for the Chinese helpers fallen on duty during WWI.
My last paragraph has perhaps not that much to do with the general thought, but I wanted only to pinpoint at some, as for instance in the Korean war, who are only interested in the casualties of their own Western people. But again, that's perhaps also a characteristic of human behaviour, first the own and then the rest. Near is my shirt, but nearer is my skin.
Thanks again for your website and kind regards. -
Message 12
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Saturday, 26th November 2005
Today is the Black Saturday...
Throughout the Ukraine the Citizens of my beloved
native land are weeping...
The Day of Memory of these millions who were
fallen by victims of Golodomor in
1920th,1930-33,1946-47 and Big Lies... -
Message 13
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Saturday, 26th November 2005
Direct deaths were more than 20,000,000
Indirect deaths (for me are the same direct) and direct deaths rise to be 50,000,000 people.
That means today Siberia would be populated and Russian empire would have a healthy population of 400,000,000 - million people or more and probably would be the global power above USA.
I was always wondering if communism which came from the west to Russia was not a capitalist trick to keep down and controlled this giant (England and France and later Germany were trying to control Russia since the late 18th century) since the west had invested all their money in USA in the mid-late 19th century. Of course you will say that is a generalisation but then is is overgeneralisation that one day that Russian muziks woke up and learnt to read in order to read Marx like others read the Bible. It is ridiculus. -
Message 14
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Saturday, 26th November 2005
When Marx came to the Russian Empire in March
1972 with his 'political economy'(Capital) his
critique was not applicable to R.Empire,where
the 'capitalist exploitation' of which he spoke
had never been experienced.
The 'scientific' nature of Marxist theory
intoxicated the Russian radical mind. Marx's
historical dialectic seemed to do for society
what Darwin had done for humanity:provide
a 'logical theory of evolutionary development'..
It was 'very serious' and 'objective',a
comprehensive system that would explain the
social world.('fish&monkeys')
It was in this sense an answer to that
quintessential Russian quest for a knowledge
that was ABSOLUTE!!!!
It showed that progress lay in industry ,that
there was meaning in the CHAOS OF HISTORY,and
that THROUGH THE WORKING CLASS socialism would
become THE END of history.
The message had a special appeal to the Russian
intelligentsia ,painfully aware as they were of
their country's backwardness,since it implied
that Russia would inevitably become more like
the advanced countries of the West-Germany..The
idea that Marxism could bring Russia closer to
the West was probably its principal idea. -
Message 15
Posted by steveP (U1775134) on Sunday, 27th November 2005
Personally,
I thought the figure was in the tens of millions just for the "Great Terror" period in the 1930s, even before taking WW2 into account. I doubt that the true figure will ever be known, especially those who just disappeared into the Gulag, and were never seen again.
¶Ω³ΆΜύ
DL
I think part of the problem is how you determine the figures. For instance, during the so called kulak purges, while millions probably died directly by being shot or carried off to camps many more die from starvation and disease resulting from the policy of mass starvation. Similarly how do you allocate the casualties in WWII. A lot of those directly killed by the Germans might not be blamed on Stalin and the Communists, unless you consider the incompetence and corruption that weakened Russia. However mass deportations and shooting of 'unreliable elements' along with those after the conflict who had committed treason by being captured, or even deported as slave labour.
Coupled with the dubious nature of virtually all figures from Russia during this period any calculation must be fairly vague.
Steve -
Message 16
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Monday, 28th November 2005
There are many people who still being able to
give their own evidences(my own mum for example)
to fill the gap into this statitistics.
But before now only USA,Canada,Australia,Hungary
and recently Lithuania recognized the fact of a
Holocaust which had been occurred into the
Ukraine during 1932-33 and later.Thanks Lord we
are not to be alone on this point.
I want to point out the fact that it was
happening ONLY into the Ukraine during
1932-33,1946-47. The loss of people was nearly
the half of their population as an
outcome(15,000,000 lives)of a Holocaust which was
conducted by Stalin and his hangers-on.
And it was clearly directed against the
Ukrainians as a whole nation....
In Russian Soviet Federation itself in these
years such cases were not witnessed....
It is the fact also that there were not any cases in evidence
of resistance to Stalin's regime from the side of
Russian 'muziks' during
and after the WWII within Russian Soviet
Federation itself. There was one Stalin's
general(who surrendered to Hitler) -Vlasov but he himself
is hardly could be called as the leader of
resistance.
But Ukrainians had showed to Stalin&Co their own
FINGER in 1946-47 and then deserved to be
nicknamed by Russian 'muziks' and
as 'banderovtzy','hohly' and so on
....
Such attitude towards Citizens( and the Free
World in general )goes from their own envy to the
people who want to live free on their own land I
reckon.....
In return for their resistance to Stalin's regime
the Ukrainians had their next stage of Holocaust
in 1946-47....
Where is that Second N. to obtain these true
figures of victims ?Or these victims don't
deserve for such 'honour'.Hmm but even American dogs
who served in US Army in Nam are deserved to get their own Monument. -
Message 17
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 28th November 2005
Hmm but even American dogs
who served in US Army in Nam are deserved to get their own Monument.
Μύ
Disgraceful comment, and well out of order!
Although Vietnam was a massive mistake on the part of the US, and they should (with hindsight) have never got involved-the Domino theory was utter rubbish-I can hardly see how the soldiers who fought for the US in that war can be classed as "dogs"!!! Especially when you consider that most of them were drafted, and had no choice about going! Absolutely shocking, and I am amazed that someone can show such a lack of respect.
Watch out OUNUPA, Expat's gonna getcha for that one.
Deservedly so too.
Incidentally, the Ukraine was not exactly guilt-free when it came to the Holocaust. How many concentration camps had Ukrainian guards? I think you'll find that a lot of them did.
DL -
Message 18
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Monday, 28th November 2005
DL
You've got my words about dogs in a wrong way...
I mean the dogs of which Expat mentioned into
his posts...
But now I'm talking about 15,000,000 of lives of Ukrainians.
Then we would begin to talk about other things. -
Message 19
Posted by ungodfather (U2173708) on Monday, 28th November 2005
DL, that would be dogs as in woof woof, not an insult to human soldiers. The US, like most other armies, used sniffer dogs, guard dogs, and I think mine detecting dogs (sniffing again but risky work).
There's a similar statue in London commemorating the dogs, mules, carrier pigeons, etc that served the Commonwealth in the two world wars. -
Message 20
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 28th November 2005
DL, that would be dogs as in woof woof, not an insult to human soldiers. The US, like most other armies, used sniffer dogs, guard dogs, and I think mine detecting dogs (sniffing again but risky work).
There's a similar statue in London commemorating the dogs, mules, carrier pigeons, etc that served the Commonwealth in the two world wars.Μύ
Many apologies OUNUPA! I totally misunderstood your post! -
Message 21
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Monday, 28th November 2005
DL
Only other WORLD TRIAL has its right to judge-when those witnesses would stand in court and tell again and again their stories of Stalin's murderous actions.
OUNers are ready to take the challenge from any of sides.
Putin's Russia is scared this Trial nearly to its death.
That's the real 'DO-MI-NO'!
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