Wars and ConflictsÌý permalink
Intolerance-Man's true nature?
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005
Hi All,
Intolerance appears to be the natural state of affairs on this planet, and this messageboard is showing this to be true all by itself! We see intolerance on nationalist, religious and ethnic grounds splattered all over here.
I was just reading through the thread on "Do we ever learn from history", and found that surprise surprise, the thread had been reduced into a "My Dad's bigger than your Dad" argument on nationalist lines (mainly between the US and UK, as usual). There were a few interesting points on there, but as usual they were buried under intolerant rants as to which nation was the most genocidal historically, or which nation kicked the other's butt in some war a few centuries ago. What relevance has this to the original thread? You tell me....
Then when you go looking through other news items, we have intolerance all over the news, some group of idiots somewhere killed some people in the name of some God/ideology/nationalistic pride/whatever (delete as applicable) just because those people prayed to some other God (both deities of course may not even exist) differently/believed in a different ideology or none at all/came from a different region/had a different name/was just generally different. I can't help but look at this and think "What the **** is wrong with our species???". Can we not just live our lives, in the way we'd prefer to do without either someone condemning us to death for some obscure irrelevance or us killing people ourselves for the crime of being different?
Are we really that shallow and petty, that beneath the "thin veneer of civilisation", there lurks a murdering bigot in each and every one of us? History tells me that yes, this is far too true. The history of humanity is one of intolerance, and progress through standing on the little guy. How true is this? IMO it is a bit too close for comfort. Deny it if you can.
Yours depressingly,
DL -
Message 2
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005
Afternoon Dl,
I wouldn't necessarily say 'Intolerance' is (human's) true nature, but I would say Suspicion and distrust of anything that we don't understand, or anything that is different from ourselves is a True state of affairs! -
Message 3
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005
Hi Mani,
Nah, I would go further than that. All you have to do is look through the news and there it is.
Just have a read through the "Human Rights thread" and in particular Nikolaos' comments. Pages and pages of going on about what a neighbouring country calls itself. Pure intolerance. Then we see a District Council in the UK banning the cartoon character "Piglet" from its offices as it may offend Muslims. More intolerance. If you look through all the message boards on the Â鶹ԼÅÄ site, you find that many, many posts on there are either anti-US or anti-Muslim. We see lengthy discussions on whether women who wear skimpy clothes deserve to be raped, and the so called "moral majority" seems to be 100% convinced that society is about to collapse because the nation's drinking laws, introduced as a measure to protect war production in World War One are about to be relaxed. Strange how things worked fine before then, but no, apparently the people of this country are going to turn into raving alcoholics as of tonight.
There are people who appear to be genuinely terrified of the UK being taken over by the US, or being turned into an Islamic state, or being taken over by the EU and so on and so on.
There are those who think that fox hunting is the most important thing in life, and those who are obsessed with the over inflated value of their homes (despite the fact that this is resulting in 95% of those under 30 being unable to afford to buy a small broom cupboard in a dodgy area to call home), and the main news item where I live yesterday? A woman arrested for breast-feeding a baby in a public place.
Is it just me Mani, or is there something not quite right in all this? Anyone that we find different is viewed with suspicion, and the suspicion is returned, yet it looks like it has always been this way. Will we ever learn?
DL -
Message 4
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005
I have nothing to add to your words DL.
I myself sometimes go to hell knows where into my posts...but I always keep on my mind my own general line.
But I've been noticed that people don't like to read books to obtain the first hand information about subjects before to go through and then crack 'em .
OUNUPA. -
Message 5
Posted by Giselle-Leah (U1725276) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005
Hi DL - here's the "other" DL but I'll sign myself with my full name.
I think your post was very sensitive and thoughtful. However, I think the answer to the question "will we ever learn?" is, IMHO, both yes and no.
Yes because it is learned by those of the current generation, and no because succeeding generations have to learn "it", whatever "it" is, all over again.
People are by nature intolerant, and this intolerance stems from tribal loyalty, fear of the tribe being invaded and overruled by the invader, whether it be stone-age man from across the valley wanting your comfy cave or people who have moved into your area, wear funny clothes and do strange things at weekends like go to a synagogue, church or mosque.
People are also intolerant of disability because again, going back to the tribe (and herds of animals) a disabled animal will either slow down the herd when escaping and there is the fear of bad "genes" coming into the tribe.
That's why the lessons have to be learned over and over and over again.
Yours in optimism - DaughterLeah
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Message 6
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005
Hi DL (formerly known as HH!)
How are you?! Very nice to see you on these boards, we haven't heard from you in ages, and your words have been sorely missed, and I know I can speak for many others on that one!
I have to agree with your post, although am not so optimistic. It seems from my viewpoint that society is polarising along a "them and us" line, and in fact some national leaders have even said as much in speeches (Bush-" You're either with us, or against us") and the result can only be bad.
Mankind is however, capable of as much good as evil, and one can only hope that the good side of our nature will win out in the end. Not much sign of it yet though.
You wrote " the lessons have to be learned over and over and over again", and this is spot on. I just wish that someday soon we'll get the message.
All the best,
Shalom,
DL -
Message 7
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005
...society is polarising along a "them and us" line, and in fact some national leaders have even said as much in speeches (Bush-" You're either with us, or against us") and the result can only be bad.
Ìý
I don't think society is polarising. Our leaders maybe trying to make us polarise, but I think, in the UK at least, we have been multicultural for long enough that most people are unimpressed.
I don't know many people who fell for all that 'you're either with us or against us' nonsense. -
Message 8
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005
wish I could deny what you wrote Dark, but as usual you hit the proverbial on the head.
Humans can be creatures of amazing depth, outstanding charity, warmth and love, and yet while the right hand shows our humanity our left hand shows our inhumanity, with our greed, our intolerance our pettiness. You only have to witness the Balkans to see human nature writ large, or go to the City of London to see some of the other inhumanities.
I still believe that we balance. The left and the right do cancel themselves, as otherwise we would drift to much one way or the other and we were never ment to exist in an extreme either good or bad, but ti muddle along in glorious grey here in the centre.
Rich -
Message 9
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005
Re: Message 5?
Honeyhill,
glad that you are back on the messageboard.
Thank you for your in depth message. I will try to answer directly to Darklight.
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 10
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005
Correction: That ? after 5 was a typo. It had to be: ,
Honeyhill, I only started with a reply to you and I made already a fault again(big smile). -
Message 11
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005
Darklight,
thank you for this thought-provoking post.
Mani, OUNUPA, Mike, Richie and especially DaughterLeah have brought some very interesting replies. If I may, as Tas says it, add my two penny contribution to it.
I read on the "ancient and archaeology" in the message 12 from lol beeble in the Velikovsky thread:
"owes something to Velikovsky's denial of the constructivist attitude to human development that assumed things were always getting better"
I am always reading lol's messages in depth, because in them always each word counts (smile, I hope lol read this). There I wanted to reply nearly what I intend to reply here.
This "constructivist attitude" is also mine.
And it comes from learning history. As I see it starting from the prehistory, the first city states and later the more and more complex civilisations, were, I agree, intolerant to each other as the individuals for what ever reason.
But after each war, each interbellum, they, the nations and the individuals, progressed "a little bit" in understanding what happened.
And if you look at the so-called horrendous 20th century, it was certainly not worser than all the previous ones. In fact, in my humble opinion, while so many people become more and more conscient of what happens with them, it is always less easy, to bring them to the hatred of the centuries before. I even think that the madness of all the recent "holocausts" isn't that much worser than the "crusade" against the Cathars in the South of France to call but one example.
And as I see it today, we are in the last decennia accelerating the uniting all over the world and step by step leaving the old prejudices and intolerances based on ethnic and religious grounds. For those, for whom it is not apparent, I say, look at the history. And it is made, again in my humble opinion, by more education and communication of the average human.
I agree most with Honeyhill, when she says, we have to learn it generation after generation again, but it is much helped and makes much progress while it is supported by education and mass communication to the broader public.
Kind regards to all,
yours optimistic Paul. -
Message 12
Posted by Simplicissimus (U2398521) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
I suppose the key to it all is fear.
We are naturally intolerant because we have so little control of our individual lives and fear 'Others' might be doing us down or getting more than their fair share. If we all felt more secure in ourselves and if there was plenty of everything to go round, then there would be no reason to fear, no reason to compete and no reason to be intolerant. There would also be no reason to get up in the morning.
Where would we be without fear?
Just a cheery thought. S -
Message 13
Posted by (( sean )) Free Nordmann (U2053581) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
...i agree with you completely again DL...internet usage seems to remove much of that veneer of civilisation and what we have here is merely the nice end of that effect. this is obviously how people would want to voice their beliefs and behave if there was no kind of recourse...reading some people blinkered knee jerk posting i wonder how they couldve even got through life thinking the way they do. but i am never supprised. but if it ever breaks out on our streets like it does on these boards atleast you have the advantage of knowing how to use an automatic weapon.
cheers -
Message 14
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
Hi All,
I must admit it is encouraging to see that so many of us feel the same, but also it is sad too, I was hoping it was just me!!!
hoi_polloi,
God help us if I ever do have to pick up a weapon again! I am, sadly still on the reserve list, even though they have no idea where I am living, but I have no doubts that the brown envelope would find me were the worst to happen!
Cheers all,
DL -
Message 15
Posted by (( sean )) Free Nordmann (U2053581) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
God help us if I ever do have to pick up a weapon again! I am, sadly still on the reserve list, even though they have no idea where I am living, but I have no doubts that the brown envelope would find me were the worst to happen!
Ìý
yes. i can hear in many of your postings that you've had your fill of that kind of thing. i hope you never get the brown envelope DL
best wishes, Sean -
Message 16
Posted by Giselle-Leah (U1725276) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
I am a positive person, so much so that I think I live in a vacuum. In fact, I have a weekend cottage in cloud-cuckoo land.
Many years ago on the telly I saw a fascinating programme and I'll try and describe it. Imagine the screen being split in two halves by a vertical line. On the left are the good guys being peaceful. On the right are the bad guys, attacking the good guys. Many good guys die, but not all. A few remain. They hide. The bad guys then start attacking each other, because THAT IS WHAT THEY DO (sorry to shout). Bad guys never turn into good guys.
The bad guys end up destroying each other, because that's their nature. While all of this is going on, the good guys have been quietly increasing in size and then overcome the bad guys. The bad guys lick their wounds for a while, go away, increase in size and the cycle starts all over again.
The result of this experiment is that although there will always be good guys and bad guys, the bad guys never ever win, because that is not the nature of the world. It might look so temporarily, but in the long term it is not meant to be so.
So, happy days, everyone.
Daughter Leah
PS: I've been trying to knock some sense into loads of twerps on the Today Board but gave up as flogging a dead horse, so it's nice to be back here again. Really decent folk here. I've missed you too. -
Message 17
Posted by Giselle-Leah (U1725276) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
Re: Message 5?
Honeyhill,
glad that you are back on the messageboard.
Thank you for your in depth message. I will try to answer directly to Darklight.
Warm regards,
Paul.Ìý
Hi Paul - don't laugh. I wanted to keep my Honeyhill moniker but when I registered at work (in addition to home) I completely forgot the "special question" they ask so I had to do another "special question" and so I lost my origional name. "Honeyhill" is the English translation of my mother's maiden name in German.
I also messed up with DaughterLeah. I wanted to register as my mother's daughter (her Hebrew name was Esther) but Leah is my Hebrew name, so anyway, here I am as my own daughter. Go figure.
It's really nice on this MB. When my computer at home is fixed, I'll have more time and will visit more often. -
Message 18
Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
Hi DL
Yesterday We spoke toghther about napoleon and hitler and I leeft you messege that you didn't answered it why don't you see it? Hi All,
I must admit it is encouraging to see that so many of us feel the same, but also it is sad too, I was hoping it was just me!!!
hoi_polloi,
God help us if I ever do have to pick up a weapon again! I am, sadly still on the reserve list, even though they have no idea where I am living, but I have no doubts that the brown envelope would find me were the worst to happen!
Cheers all,
DLÌý -
Message 19
Posted by (( sean )) Free Nordmann (U2053581) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
I am a positive person, so much so that I think I live in a vacuum. In fact, I have a weekend cottage in cloud-cuckoo land.
Many years ago on the telly I saw a fascinating programme and I'll try and describe it. Imagine the screen being split in two halves by a vertical line. On the left are the good guys being peaceful. On the right are the bad guys, attacking the good guys. Many good guys die, but not all. A few remain. They hide. The bad guys then start attacking each other, because THAT IS WHAT THEY DO (sorry to shout). Bad guys never turn into good guys.
The bad guys end up destroying each other, because that's their nature. While all of this is going on, the good guys have been quietly increasing in size and then overcome the bad guys. The bad guys lick their wounds for a while, go away, increase in size and the cycle starts all over again.
The result of this experiment is that although there will always be good guys and bad guys, the bad guys never ever win, because that is not the nature of the world. It might look so temporarily, but in the long term it is not meant to be so.
So, happy days, everyone.
Daughter Leah
PS: I've been trying to knock some sense into loads of twerps on the Today Board but gave up as flogging a dead horse, so it's nice to be back here again. Really decent folk here. I've missed you too. Ìý
"the rain it rainith on the just, and on the unjust fella
but chiefly on the just because, the unjust stole the justs umbrella"
Lord Bowen -
Message 20
Posted by Giselle-Leah (U1725276) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
Yeah, but if the unjust stole it maybe he hasn't got a job, so stretching the imagination that bit further, the just has a job and went out to John Lewis and bought himself another bigger and better umbrella.
If he was a really decent "good guy" then his umbrella would be big enough to shelter both of them.
DaughterLeah -
Message 21
Posted by (( sean )) Free Nordmann (U2053581) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
i remember around twenty years ago, queing in the rain for a public phone, as i'm 5 ft 3" and disabled, the fellow behind me felt he was with in his rights to push me out of the way, leaving me in the rain, when the telephone box became vacant. yours is an interesting theory however and a nice idea. in reality the just man has lost his job for 'whistle-blowing', and i fear that the unjust man would view the sharing of an umbrella on the initiation of the just as a sign of weakness. ingratiate himself into the just's home, steal all of his possessions so as to buy crack-cocaine.
Yeah, but if the unjust stole it maybe he hasn't got a job, so stretching the imagination that bit further, the just has a job and went out to John Lewis and bought himself another bigger and better umbrella.
If he was a really decent "good guy" then his umbrella would be big enough to shelter both of them. DaughterLeahÌý
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Message 22
Posted by hallamhal (U2549864) on Thursday, 24th November 2005
greed is one of mans greatest failings. sad, really.
-
Message 23
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Monday, 28th November 2005
Re: Message 17.
Leah,
excuse for not replying earlier. Already four days...
Thank you very much for sharing this intimate information about yourself and your mother. I made Honigberg of it.
Hope that your computer at home will be fixed in the near future so that the readers of these boards can see more often contributions of yours.
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 24
Posted by Giselle-Leah (U1725276) on Wednesday, 30th November 2005
Hi Paul
Oh the wonders of technology. Don't ask.
I was DaughterLeah at both home and work and to this day do not understand how that is possible.
Anyway, the new computers have arrived, flat screen, yummy gorgeous, but I can't register as DaughterLeah at home. It asks the question that I'm supposed to know the answer to "What is my OH's name?" and every answer I give it does not recognise.
So, I'll play with it at the weekend and if it means a new moniker at home, well, so be it.
It's freezing in London. How is it in lovely lovely Bruges?
Will catch up with everyone soon.
Best wishes - DaughterLeah -
Message 25
Posted by Giselle-Leah (U1725276) on Wednesday, 30th November 2005
Hi again - yes, your translation is correct.
-
Message 26
Posted by Slimdaddy101 (U2553470) on Wednesday, 30th November 2005
Like everything in life every action has a reaction. I don't believe that a murderous, killing machine lurks in all of us.
After reading your posting I mused a while a typed in hate into google.
It came back with 94,800,000 hits.
I then typed love and it returned with 512,000,000 hits.
It probably doesn't tell us anything. But I believe there is much more love in the world than hate. -
Message 27
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Saturday, 3rd December 2005
Slimdaddy,
I admire your optimism (but don't share it I'm afraid!). I hope there is more love than hate in the world, but I do believe sincerely that mankind has a capacity for turning into what you describe as a murderous killing machine, and every member of our rather weird species has this capability, and sadly life experience tells me that I am correct.
Cheers
DL -
Message 28
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Saturday, 3rd December 2005
Another interesting discussion by DL,
Bigotry, intolerance or the relatively new term 'racism' are no separate characteristics of the human race.
They are the expression of the only one true characteristic of the human being: the struggle for power. Power is the only thing that a human being enjoys like most mammals do in the world.
Feed a lion everyday with raw meet and it gets depressed. Leave it out to starve 2-3 days in order to go hunting, it will do so and when it succeeds it will be the happiest lion.
I know that the comparison of humans to animals has been overused in the past and I sound a bit tacky but then what? See around you?
Human being do not enjoy the riches, the luxury, or the easy living, do not enjoy anything else more than they actually enjoy power over environment and above all power over other human beings. Nietchze with his 'superhuman' despite his pessimism he was only being honest on that, others strived to tear down his philosophies but their actions were only proving him.
People will only talk about 'justive' and 'human rights' and 'bad attitudes' only if it serves their reasons. The powerless because they hope to survive on the pitty of the more powerful, and the powerful use it to find a point to justify morally their immoral actions, then to use it as a propaganda for weakening their mid-power opponents.
You cannot add much on that, not because I said it, not because Nietchze said it but because men say it from the dawn of mankind. All the rest is false or simply superficial. -
Message 29
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Saturday, 3rd December 2005
Prepared to be shocked Nikolaos!!!
I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH YOU!!!
Sadly, a lot of what you are saying is quite true in my somewhat jaded opinion.
Apologies, I will write a proper reply later on, I have to go out now..
DL -
Message 30
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Saturday, 3rd December 2005
i remember around twenty years ago, queing in the rain for a public phone, as i'm 5 ft 3" and disabled, the fellow behind me felt he was with in his rights to push me out of the way, leaving me in the rain, when the telephone box became vacant.
Ìý
Dear hoi_pollloi,
I can entirely sympathise. Being disabled myself, I am all too aware of the way most people take advantage of any perceived weakness. My daily trip to and from work is a constant round of being pushed out of the way. I have been knocked into walls several times, actually knocked over completely once, had car drivers sound their horns impatiently because I have not crossed the road quickly enough for them. As for trying to get on a train first - forget it. I always wait until the end now and just have to put up with standing, as experience tells me that I will just be pushed out of the way if I try to get on before anyone else.
While there are the odd few people who actually have manners, I'm afraid the overwhelming human condition is selfishness. Don't get me wrong, I am not bitter, twisted and cynical about it (well, not much). It is just one of those things the less than able bodied have to put up with. I like to think I wasn't so self-centred before I became disabled, but maybe I was. -
Message 31
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Saturday, 3rd December 2005
The title of this thread reminded me of the theories of the French philosopher Rousseau. To paraphrase slightly, "Everything should be tolerated except intolerance. Intolerant people should be removed from society". Talk about self-contradiction.
-
Message 32
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Saturday, 3rd December 2005
Dear DL,
I am not suprised that you agree with me. The fact that we had strong disagreements on specific issues (the 'strong' arrives when we throw in our opinions 'raw', unfortunately, refinement needs a lot of space for bla-blah and that is nontheless tiring, I admit repeating that mistake).
I also know that you are not at all the man enclosed in his microcosmus (the glass-tower as they say in other countries) and have seen things like this in real life going on in front of your eyes during your military service in Jugoslavia so you know better than any 'anti-racist' and 'justice-fighter' that would instantly change house as soon as a 'halal-shop' opened in their neighbourhood (no offense to anyone...).
For myself, I admit I have lived in a microcosmos but my relatively-free-of-conventions spirit (personal opinion) allows me to beyond modern "cheap mass production ethic codes". Above all it is my love for history and my inherent 'need' of placing everything on a broader perspective that makes me arrive in such generic It is not at all pessimism or anything like that, I am inherently positive. It is that for good or for bad most of our discussions here concentrate on the more dark side of history like most people will opt to see an 'action' movie rather than a boring documentary... -
Message 33
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Saturday, 3rd December 2005
Interesting Nikolaos,
How people can express an opinion that seems almost at odds to one they express about a matter that has a direct effect on them. I do sadly know what you mean when it you refer to those who are totally "Politically correct" until "difference" lands on their doorstep.
The upbringing people receive has a direct effect on people's prejudices, in fact you can probably say that they are inherited from their parents. My own opinion comes from the same source although reinforced by life experience, which in my own viewpoint leaves me committed to the devout belief that people should be allowed to think, say and believe what they like so long as it doesn't harm anyone else.
Referring to your "dark side of history" yes, I agree that people are drawn to the dirtier deeds of the past, rather than the good things (unless the good things were against the darker side). That is just human nature, the same force which makes people stare at a car accident, and read stories of crime and debauchery in the news.
We all equally have a capacity for good and for evil, and evil only takes hold when tolerance and empathy are not there.
Cheers
DL -
Message 34
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Monday, 5th December 2005
Re: Message 24 and 25.
Leah,
thank you very much for your kind reply and excuse for the already 5 days I had to answer...
Had snowed 15 cm (6 inches) in Bruges that day I think and near the freezing.
Hope that you "catch up with everyone soon".
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 35
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Monday, 5th December 2005
Ian Hislop's excellent "Not Forgotten" told the story of a woman who lost five sons in WW1. Dspiteher family losing more immediate members than any other family in Britain, she felt compelled to leave her home village because the neighbours kept commenting how well she was doing financially due to the war pensions she received from having five next of kin killed.
Aren't people nice?
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