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G.A.Custer, US expanionist or Scot patriot??

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Saturday, 19th November 2005

  The westward expansion of the American colonies was inevitable as a necessary economic and military move, if the 'US' was to be seen as a serious player on the world stage in late 19C. We've all heard stories of buffalo destroyed in their thousands for no reason other than sport for white colonialists, at a time when it would have been so easy to expand on the social and political gains made during the Civil War. Great Britain made her position known when she made payment to Davis to support equilibrium and preserve the native American existence. In his drive for the Presidency, did Custer put his ambition before the world order of the day, or was he simply a Scottish son trying to be a modern Ceasar, cashing in on Lincoln's wish to be 'the man who freed the slaves'?? Did he really betray the native Americans, or was he simply trying to drag them into the '19 Century' to his own personal benefit??

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  Posted by laforgem (U2405289) on Saturday, 19th November 2005

  The British gave money not because they loved or respected native cultures, but to cripple the US by helping people fighting it.
  Custer wanted the presidency, but he didn't have the name recognition he was hoping for after the Civil War. He needed to become more famous as an indian fighter, he took one too many chances and was killed.
  Buffalo herds were killed and the US government supported this policy to "control" the plains indian tribes. Your enemy can't fight or live if they have no food or shelter after all.
  People seem to forget that cultural conflict and open hostilities were almost constant between colonists (and later Americans) and natives from the beginning. Not living in these politically correct times one group had to go. Genocide isn't pretty, but it happens.
  Custer was man of his times, he didn't care about Native Americans other than they were mostly easy targets and a way to fame.
  
  Indian giver: NOUN Offensive
  One who gives something to another and then takes or demands the gift back.
  

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  Posted by Salino (U2550900) on Sunday, 20th November 2005

  It's time people dropped this notion that Custer wanted the Presidency. The only evidence for this is based on the recollection of an Arikara scout some 37 years after Custer died. He was one of Custer's scouts in '76 and it is considered now that Custer was trying to impress his Indians in order they work better for him. Although he was close to the top Democrats of the time, it is absurd to suggest he would have been nominated by them at the Democratic convention later that year, or that his battle tactics were based on this notion. Should they get in power, it is more likely he would have hoped, and expected, promotion to Brigadier rather than anything political, if he had succeeded at Little Bighorn.
  

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  Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2005

  Good point Salino. Promotion was probably more in mind rather than anything political, but as regards battle tactics there is the opinion, as you're no doubt aware, that Custer was far too hasty at the Little Bighorn because of his greed for fame and glory. There were no tactics in a real sense because of his high opinion of his own abilities, and low regard for the individualistic fighting nature of the native Indian. Reno and Benteen both testified that Custer gave very vague orders prior to the battle, but this is another thing called into question. Were they sidelined into a supporting role, or perhaps they were just hiding their own timidity, although many Indians say how bravely Benteen fought. There is also a notion Custer simply wanted to be home in time for the big July 4th Centenary celebrations that year, feted as a conquering hero. A little far fetched perhaps? Or was this the true nature of the man? A real soldiers hero, or overambitious fool? I'm by no means an expert, I've only recently taken an interest, but some of the things I've read about Custer are a little contradictory. I guess over the years so many diferent versions of events or analyses of Custer's character have made the whole thing a little hazy, although its what I would call recent history. Any further information or opinions appreciated.

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  Posted by Salino (U2550900) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005

  Hi there.
  
  You've hit upon one of the frustrations of studying this piece of history, with the many contradictions not just with Custer himself, but the whole battle and all that goes with it, as so much myth and misinformation has been carried on down the years. Revisionists are finally getting to grips with it all I feel. What annoys the hell out of me is the continual inference that this battle lasted about half an hour and Custer and all his men were killed, when in fact this fight lasted more than 24 hours and was in 3 distinct segments, with Custer's infamous downfall taking up about an hour, quite early on.
  
  As for the man himself, I go along with acclaimed author Robert Utley who once said that you will see in Custer whatever you want to see.
  
  I don't go along with this too hasty for fame and glory theory. A modern view, strange to some people, is that he didn't do that much wrong at Little Bighorn tactically, bearing in mind what information he had to work with prior to the attack, the orders he was given, and as you've stated, the attitude of the troops at the time towards Indian people, i.e. they were thought more likely to run away.
  
  The decisive point for me comes at the Crow's Nest lookout on Davis Creek, where he was forced to make the decision to attack that day against his better judgement, as they had been spotted by Indians and further concealment was futile. Despite some dithering he eventually took the Crow Indian scouts advice to launch the attack that same day [instead of waiting till dawn the following day], and seemingly choosing to ignore warnings from his main scout Mitch Boyer. This was the turning point and the recipe for disaster, for them. This does not strike me as someone rushing headlong after fame and glory though, as is so often depicted.
  
  That's not to say that fame and glory seeking was not part of his character, it certainly had been, but at the age of 36 I believe he was now growing up a bit, and I don't believe he was quite as rash as some of his contemporaries and early writers would have us believe. He was caught out by a number of rollercoaster events that conspired against him, not least the one of an overwhelming and confident force of Indians, and subordinates who decided to save their own skins rather than help his cause.
  
  I prefer to think of this as not just Custer's battle as is often portrayed, it was not all about him, but one involving thousands of people, equally important, and the events both leading up to it and after are all equally fascinating to research.
  
  I don't know how far you've got with it, but once you get involved with this it's like a virus don't you think? It gets you and you just need to find out more.
  
  I've been there many times to the battle site, and have followed the trail up Rosebud creek. Eerie place in parts, even today.
  
  Salino
  
  

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  Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005

  For some reason, my wife bought me a copy of "Son of the Morning Star" by Evan S Connell(?). I vaguely remembered the TV film from many years ago, but its not a subject I'd had any particular interest in, so it just sat on a bookshelf for a few weeks.
  Eventually I began skimming through reading bits here and there, and then ended up reading the whole thing cover to cover over a couple of days. I was totally drawn in by the whole thing, and every page had new and interesting facts and characters.
  I surfed around on the net checking out people like Crook, Terry and all the obvious ones Reno, Benteen, Keogh etc. and what little is mentioned of the native Indians, and I was astonished to find just how many different theories there are about the Little Bighorn, character assesments or in some cases character assassinations.
  What you say about it being a virus is absolutely true. There's always something, that little bit more you need to know. I sometimes try to imagine what it really must have been like to be there. Many Indians were reluctant to talk about it for obvious reasons, and there was the long lived Elizabeth Custer who was still pushing the Custer "myth" into the 1930's. I suppose its no wonder things get a bit confused or a little out of proportion. As you mention, the events surrounding the battle are just as important, and the defence by Reno and Benteen is a story in it's own right.
  I would like to visit the site sometime in the not too distant future. In the meantime I think I've found myself a new project trying to discover as much as I can, although sorting the wheat from the chaff could be very difficult indeed. Thanks for your input. All the best.
  

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  Posted by Salino (U2550900) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005

  You're welcome - Evan Connell's book is very good from what I heard, I've never read it myself. Maybe out of print now.
  You might like to check these out sometime as I've found them particularly useful and a thorough good read:-
  
  Custer's Last Campaign by John S. Gray [1991] quite an advanced book for students of the battle itself and more besides.
  
  Lakota Noon by Gregory F. Michno [1997] - one of the few books that gives largely the Indian view of the battle.
  
  Cavalier in Buckskin - by Robert M Utley [1988] - for a concise biography of Custer.
  
  Battle of the Rosebud by Neil C. Mangum [1987] - a detailed and fascinating account of Little Bighorn's sister battle which took place 8 days before, and is fundamental to understanding what happened after, as it put Crook out of action.
  
  Should you get to Montana sometime this battlefield site is well worth a visit too - largely unspoilt.
  
  You might also be interested to know of 2 films. One called 'Into The West' which has recently been shown in the states as a mini series and has been bought by the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ to be shown on Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ2 next year. It's a 6 part series directed by Steven Spielberg.
  
  The other is a remake of 'Son of the Morning Star' again adapted from the book you have by Connell. This time it's directed by Oliver Stone. Don't know release date yet, I think it's still in production.
  
  bi for now
  

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  Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2005

  Thank you. I'll certainly be following this up, and I'll be looking out for your book suggestions. Looking forward to the films too. I'm very grateful to you. All the best.

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