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E.Prussia ,WWI 1914

• Message 1.Μύ

  Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Thursday, 17th November 2005

  I suspect that if that Russian General von Rennenkampf realized what was happening ,when Germans transferred the most of their forces south to meet Samsonov's advancing army,and attacked he possibly brought the war to an end in
  1914.

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Mark (U1347077) on Friday, 18th November 2005

  Had the two Russian Armies been able to combine I still doubt they would have been able to comprehensively defeat the Germans as they faced certain hindrances such as having 1/10th the ratio of machine guns and artillery that the Germans had. The worst problem was they were transmitting their radio messages uncoded so Hindenburg/Luddendorf knew the armies were separated.
  
  As it was, Von Moltke weakened the Schlieffen Plan to send reinforcements east but this was unwise. A combined Russian army would probably have caused the Germans to be more defensive but the Russians were still hampered by being relatively backward.

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Friday, 18th November 2005

  Surely so,Mahros-'The worst problem was they were transmitting their radio messages uncoded so Hindenburg/Luddendorf knew the armies were separated'.
  From intercepted wireless transmissions ,which the Russians had carelessly sent unciphered ,they
  learned that Renenkampf's army had stopped for supplies ,and gambled on the assumption that it would go no futher.
  Leaving ONLY A SMALL SCREENING FORCE to deceive Rennenkampf,the Germans transferred the rest of their forces south by train to meet Samsonov's advancing army.Had Rennenkampf realized what was happening and attacked,he could have won a decisive victory against the German left and possibly brought the war to an end.
  That plan called for boldness,tactical precision and sound intelligence of the enemy's movements.
  None of these qualities was in evidence.
  

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Friday, 18th November 2005

  Re: Message 1.
  
  OUNUPA,
  
  great "what if" and splendid reply from Mahros.
  
  If I had time I did research about it (while I am not competent about this) and joined the discussion.
  
  Kind regards.

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Saturday, 19th November 2005

  ,Paul
  
  Kind regards.

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Idamante (U1894562) on Sunday, 20th November 2005

  
  From intercepted wireless transmissions ,which the Russians had carelessly sent unciphered ,they
  learned that Renenkampf's army had stopped for supplies ,and gambled on the assumption that it would go no futher.
  Μύ
  
  Apparently the Germans made exactly the same mistake on the Western front allowing Joffre to intercept their messages and so win the Battle of the Marne (I say "apparently" cos that's wot it says in Wikipedia - can anyone confirm this?)
  
  A few other points:
  
  Although the Russians "lost" the battle they did succeed in diverting crucial troops from the Western front, so maybe a "pyrrhic victory" for the Germans?
  
  The troops who were diverted arrived too late to take part in the battle, which confirms what a bad move it was by Moltke
  
  Hindenburg & Ludendorff played up the victory for all it was worth and turned themselves into national heroes - allowing them eventually to take over Germany's conduct of the war, with disastrous results

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Monday, 21st November 2005

  Hi Gaiseric
  Monday is a hard day,you know
  But in any case
  I suspect that
  
  Hindenburg&Ludendorf turned themselves into heroes because of the fact that the General Prittwitz,the German commander of the German Eighth Army ,was thrown into panic and urged a
  
  withdrawl to the western banks of the Vistula,abandoning East Prussia to the Russians,before he was replaced by H&L,whose vast superriority in tactics and intelligence enabled 'em to ambush and rout their larger army.
  On the 15th day of mobilization in Russia 408 their battalions of infantry and 235 squadrons of their cavalry moved rapidly west,pushing back the German Eighth Army ,which they outnumbered almost two to one.But the Russian commanders delayed their advance and dispersal vital troops and artillery to protect what turned out to be useless fortresses on their flanks and in their rear.
  It is not true,as historians later claimed,that the Russian army was unprepeared for war.
  In manpower and materiel it was at least equal of the German Army ,and, thanks to the recent improvement of Russia's western railways,took only three days more than its enemy to complete its mobilization.The Schlieffen Plan -which had been counting on Russia taking three weeks longer so that the German forces would be able to knock out France before Russia attacked 'em-was thus confounded and the Germans became bogged down in fighting on two Fronts .But this also the end of 'All over by Christmas',as saying went-and it was here that Russia's real weakness became exposed.The WWI was a titanic test for the states of Europe-and it was one that Tsarism failed in a singular and catastrophic way!
  Yes,you are right-by forcing the Germans to withdraw troops from the Western theatre ,the Russian advance had in fact helped to stall the Schlieffen Plan and enabled the French to launch their counter-offensive on the Marne.....BUT AT WHAT PRICE!
  THE COST OF "RENNEN VON KAMPF'&Co('flight from the battle') as Germans joked ,was 60,ooo Russian lives .The loss of Germans was 15,ooo.
  But neither side was strong enough to push the enemy back ...Sweeping offensives like those
  of the first month were abondoned as the armies discovered the advantages of defensive warfare and dug themselves in....
  Cheers.

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