Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Why Eire stay out WW2?
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Β
Posted by Kings_of_fife (U2166495) on Sunday, 13th November 2005
After having debate with friends about why Eire stayed out of WW2 just wondered if anyone could shed anymore light on this issue.
From what I know I believed it was partly due to Eire obviously being quite a small country so took the natural step of neutrality like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Luxembourg etc. Although, I think that the fact she had only within a couple of decades won independence from the British Empire, this was also a factor as she did not wish to fight alongside the British Empire.
What are your thoughts? -
Message 2
Posted by Stepney Boy (U1760040) on Sunday, 13th November 2005
Hi,
Perhaps it was an agreement within the agreement that gave The Republic of Ireland it's independence that Eire should always be neutral in any future europeon conflict?
The same way as deals within deals were done in the Good Friday Agreement.
Only guessing though
regards
Spike -
Message 3
Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Sunday, 13th November 2005
Hi,
Ireland's neutrality was one of the founding prinicples of the State, inherited from Roger Casement's experiences in international politics. Ireland was, like India after it, interested in a non-alignment approach to international politics, and claimed to be therefore a potential broker/go-between in various disputes. This continual policy/ideology is one of the reasons that the Irish Army has been used so much on UN missions. (Any nastiness committed by Irish people in a historical sense was generally committed under a British Flag, or an American one, or an Australian one, or an Argentinian, you get the idea.)
The actual neutrality of WWII officially springs from this philosophy as set down by Casement on how to maintain Ireland's international profile/reputation by never becoming embroiled in another nation's war. Although Ireland was technically still in the commonwealth throughout WWII, the constitution had been passed into law two years before hostilities which declared the state a republic and free of the Britisg Crown. With De Velera at the helm, the opposition affectionately known as the blueshirts, there wasn't the political will to join the old enemy for any purpose. It would have been difficult to sell to the population that the Irish National Army should fight along side the British Army under any circumstances. Neutrality was easier.
In the end it backed fired as the Marshall plan was not generous to nations that did not participate, and De Velera's message of condolences on the death of Hitler (taking non-alignment to the extreme) was a blight on an otherwise diginified career international statesman (whatever one's views of his domestic activities, he did manage to punch above his weight on the international stage.)
The fact that the Irish people were still trying to buy the land back of the Brits 20 years after they had left, and that the Irish economy was, dispute a number of self-reliance policies of the 1930s, tied to the British, served to underscore the desire to be seen as seperate. Alliance could have sucked the national pysche back towards a commonality of the British Isles, god forbid!
Elistan -
Message 4
Posted by FowPah (U1746998) on Sunday, 13th November 2005
I'm sure there are those who quite enjoyed seeing us on our knees.
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Message 5
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005
The country may have remained out of the war, but its people volunteered in their 1,000s for the British armed forces.
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Message 6
Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005
I cant really understand how historians can expect Eire to have willingly joined the Allied side in World War II. It was only 17 years after a limited independence was reluctantly granted by London that the war broke out. Between 1919 and 1921 there had been a bitter, if sporadic, guerilla war going on in Ireland, and atrocities were committed by both sides. Following that, there was a civil conflict between 1922-1923 and, although only a few hundred people died, it left a huge split in Irish society that, to some extent, still has not healed. The Dominion Status that was granted to Ireland was a hard fought concession from Britain.
If De Valera had declared war on Germany, Britain would have been faced with containing an Ireland which would have plunged back into civil war, and would have been easy prey for Germany to exploit, even indirectly. So a benevolently neutral Eire was far more beneficial to the British war effort, than a belligerent but unstable Eire. Tens of thousands of Irishmen enlisted in the British Army. Rmemeber also that Northern Ireland, still part of the UK and proud of the contribution that it made to the war effort, refused to implement conscription; so London was having trouble getting their own house in order, never mind destabilising other countries. -
Message 7
Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005
I'm sure there are those who quite enjoyed seeing us on our knees.Β
Dont be so narrow minded. Of course there was anti-British sentiment in Ireland during the Second World War. Its the same with the USA at the moment. But anti-British sentiment is not the same as pro-German support. This "seeing us on our knees" argument sounds too much like Churchill referring to Ireland as "so-called Eire" in his memoirs. -
Message 8
Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005
<quote user='spike' userid='1760040'>Hi,
Perhaps it was an agreement within the agreement that gave The Republic of Ireland it's independence that Eire should always be neutral in any future europeon conflict?
The same way as deals within deals were done in the Good Friday Agreement.
Ireland didnt become a Republic until 1949. It was only Dominion Status that was granted in 1921. Have a look at the Westminister Agreement of 1931 and the Irish Constitution of 1937 for pointers as to how Eire managed to stay neutral.
Smeg -
Message 9
Posted by iPad (U2181937) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005
My grandparents came over from Ireland during the war to help. My Nan worked in factories and made bullets. My grandad wanted to join the Raf but wasn't physically able enough so he worked in factories too and did the fairly dangerious firewatching job, ie. sat outside during bombing raids helping to co-ordinate the emergency services.
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Message 10
Posted by FowPah (U1746998) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005
I'm sure there are those who quite enjoyed seeing us on our knees.Β
Dont be so narrow minded. Of course there was anti-British sentiment in Ireland during the Second World War. Its the same with the USA at the moment. But anti-British sentiment is not the same as pro-German support. This "seeing us on our knees" argument sounds too much like Churchill referring to Ireland as "so-called Eire" in his memoirs.Β
I never mentioned anything about pro-German support.But as you concede there was,still is,an element of anti-British feeling. -
Message 11
Posted by Idamante (U1894562) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005
There's an interesting article on De Valera in Wikipedia which talks about the "unusual" nature of Irish neutrality, eg:
The Irish government secretly aided the Allies side; for example, the timing of D-Day was decided thanks to weather reports supplied by Ireland which told of incoming weather conditions from the Atlantic.
Most Allied airmen were 'accidentally' allowed to 'escape' into Northern Ireland, while all German airmen who crashed in the Free State were interned.
(A parallel case on the other side might be Sweden, which was officially neutral but allowed German troops to pass thru its territory on one occasion.) -
Message 12
Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005
I'd always seen it as the Govt being supportive towards the Axis (refuelling u-boats etc) but more importantly the people were supportive of the allies, volunteering in very large numbers.
Interesting to read about the Govt aiding the allies in some ways.
I did read that after the southern Govt sent Fire engines to fight fires in bombed Belfast Hitler ordered a bombing mission on Dublin as punishment with one on a special mission to take out De Valera.
I do feel it was entirely natural that they stayed neutral given the very recent and painful history, it wasn't on the scale of folly as Belgiums neutrality.
As for anti-English feeling, I think its to their credit there isn't more. -
Message 13
Posted by Turnwrest (U2188092) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005
I've not seen any proof that U-boats were ever refuelled in Eire, officially sanctioned or otherwise, despite all the apocryphal stories on this.
Churchill certainly seems to have felt that the use of Irish bases would have been a major help in the crucial battle for the U.K.s survival - the Battle of the Atlantic, but active Irish participation was not a realistic option. -
Message 14
Posted by iPad (U2181937) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005
I did read that after the southern Govt sent Fire engines to fight fires in bombed Belfast Hitler ordered a bombing mission on Dublin as punishment with one on a special mission to take out De Valera.Β
I don't recall this happening myself, not saying it didn't but I thought it was generally accepted that "neutrality" is not evoked for humanitarian actions.
But then Nazi Germany rode roughshode over neutral countries anyway... -
Message 15
Posted by Mark (U2073932) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005
Eire did not wish to fight alongside the Uk nor for Nazi Germany, yet they did have German equipment including Maxim machine guns and coal scuttle helmets.
Just a bit of useless information -
Message 16
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005
Time to put the cat among the pigons After France fell, Churchill approached the Irish President, and offered him Northern Ireland at the end of the war, if the Irish government came in, or became more pro British and allowed the Royal Navy to use its ports. The President refused, telling Churchill, that when Britain fell, Germany had already promised it to them. When the war swung in Britains favour, the man tried to get Churchill to make the offer again. Churchill told him to go to hell. I am told this comes from the cabinet papers. A friend of mine reads these things for background info.
Fred -
Message 17
Posted by iPad (U2181937) on Wednesday, 16th November 2005
That is a bit serious. Links? References?
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Message 18
Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Wednesday, 16th November 2005
Time to put the cat among the pigons After France fell, Churchill approached the Irish President, and offered him Northern Ireland at the end of the war, if the Irish government came in, or became more pro British and allowed the Royal Navy to use its ports. The President refused, telling Churchill, that when Britain fell, Germany had already promised it to them. When the war swung in Britains favour, the man tried to get Churchill to make the offer again. Churchill told him to go to hell. I am told this comes from the cabinet papers. A friend of mine reads these things for background info.
Ήσ°ω±π»εΜύ
Almost spot on, GrumpyFred. Churchill did indeed contact the Taoiseach, De Valera, early on in the war, to offer a united Ireland in exchange for a active Irish belligerency. De Valera refused, rightly doubting the sincerity of the offer. Later on, at the height of the Battle of Britain I believe, Churchill sent a telegram to De Valera, which said "The time has come. A Nation once again.", which was a particularly crude attempt to lure Ireland into the war. Churchill would never have sold out the Ulster Unionists.
De Valera did discreetly approach London later to ask if the offer was still open and was, pretty much, told to feck off. The Allies had no need for Irish participation any more, although that did not stop them threatening Ireland with sanctions in the run up to the Normandy landings.
For authors who talk about this, see Brian Girvan, T. Ryle Dwyer, T.P. Coogan and any modern publication on Ireland in the Second World War. -
Message 19
Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Wednesday, 16th November 2005
I never mentioned anything about pro-German support.But as you concede there was,still is,an element of anti-British feeling.</quote>
to some people in Ireland, anti- British sentiment is a way to define themselves. Its still there, but in a very, very reduced form, mostly still existing in football.
But what else can you expect, when most of the British establishment showed nothing but contempt for years. -
Message 20
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 16th November 2005
An interesting but useless thought. In theory, both Ireland and the U. S. have the right as ex members or the Empire, to become members of The British Commonwealth. Please don't stand on us in the rush to join.
LOL
Fred -
Message 21
Posted by Turnwrest (U2188092) on Wednesday, 16th November 2005
You don't have to have been part of the British Empire to join the commonwealth, and having been part doesn't give the "right" to do so. Like any decent club, the existing members vote on whether to admit a new member, hence Namibia and Mozambique, neither a part of the empire at any time are in. I suspect Eire would get in, but I'm not so sure about the US.
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Message 22
Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Friday, 18th November 2005
< I suspect Eire would get in, but I'm not so sure about the US.</quote>
I wouldn't like to be the one who proposes rejoining the Commonwealth to the Southern Irish electorate! -
Message 23
Posted by Kings_of_fife (U2166495) on Friday, 18th November 2005
Cheers for the info guys, some really intersting stuff - never knew about that offer made by Churchill or the condolences sent to Germany after Hitlers death.
Although the discussion did become a bit side-tracked towards the end!!!! Eire back in the Commonwealth - yeh OK! -
Message 24
Posted by BIGBADONE (U2553792) on Monday, 21st November 2005
The German helmets you refer to are infact the WW1 pattern used by the Germans. They were made by Vickers on contract for the Irish Gouvernment using captured German equipment.
This style of helmet was later changed to the "Battle Bowler" to avoid Irish troops from being fired upon while on patrol on the Irish / Northern Irish border.
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