Â鶹ԼÅÄ

Wars and ConflictsÌý permalink

White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

• Message 1.Ìý

  Posted by Lord Ball (U1767246) on Thursday, 10th November 2005

  Can anyone shed any light on the apparent use of White Phosphorous in the Falklands War?

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message1

• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 11th November 2005

  Lord ball, could you expand?
  
  WP would have been used, tracers, smoke grenades etc.
  
  Do you mean were White Phosphorus Grenades used? I can ask my old man if knows something of it, he served in the Falklands.
  
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message2

• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by Sabre-Wulf (U2142937) on Friday, 11th November 2005

  I know from reading Mike Curtis' CQB (he was a para in the Falklands) they were using White Phos grenades for trench clearing on Goose Green.
  
  The thing that really surprised me was reading that the Argentinians were dropping napalm. I don't know why but I always thought use of napalm was restricted to Vietnam.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message3

• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by gooserss (U1983611) on Friday, 11th November 2005

  hi sabre
  napalm was used by the americans in ww2 on the attacks on iwo jima etc. i think it came from the british use of foo gas which was used at the end of ww1, in places round the empire, and in static defences defending the beaches from hitler in ww2.
  It sprang to attention of the media in vietnam, and was prob used before in korea.
  I have heard constant rumours that the paras captured some U.s. mercs, who were fighting for argentina, at goose green. These mercs were held until it was decided to kill them. the brit govt contacted washington, who said they has no interest in them and that they didnt exist. The mercs were shot and white phos was used to burn the bodies.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message4

• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Friday, 11th November 2005

  Where did the rumours originate?

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message5

• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 11th November 2005

  Elistan,
  
  I've been told by reliable sources that this happened.
  
  Apparently, the US Mercenaries, as well as Argentinean forces surrendered, troops under the white flag when to accept the surrender, they were shot by the US mercs. When apprehended they said something on the lines of 'It doesn't matter, we'll be back in the US in 48 hrs' at which point they were 'sung a lullaby'.
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message6

• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Friday, 11th November 2005

  Thanks mani,
  
  I didn't specifically doubt it, I was just wondering if chinese whispers was involved. Interesting story, though.
  
  Elistan

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message7

• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Friday, 11th November 2005

  Hi, y'all,
  If the U.S. merc's were illegal combatants ( and in my opinion they were) I wonder what the British reaction would have been if the Argentineans had taken any Gurkahs prisoner, and administered the same battlefield justice ?
  
  Cheerz.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message8

• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Friday, 11th November 2005

  Do mercenaries count as illegal combatants? It would seem strange to me.
  
  I've no idea what basis this rumour has, I heard it years ago as a schoolboy. Unless they were some sort of specialists it would be pretty pointless to hire a pair of mercenaries. You would also have thought they'd want to keep quiet and just get airlifted back to Argentina asap.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message9

• Message 10

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 11th November 2005

  Hi Expat,
  
  I suppose that depends on whether they opened fire under a flag of truce while accepting a surrender.
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message10

• Message 11

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 11th November 2005

  Mr Pedant,
  
  "I've no idea what basis this rumour has" I've been told by one of the eye witnesses.
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message11

• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by Lord Ball (U1767246) on Friday, 11th November 2005

  Expat, the Gurkhas are not mercenaries. Accept it and crawl under the rock from where you came.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message12

• Message 13

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Friday, 11th November 2005

  Hi Mani,
  Lets say the Argentinians shot them because they were illegal combatents.
  
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message13

• Message 14

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Friday, 11th November 2005

  Lord Ball, Once again your lack of anything of substance to contribute has resulted in your pathetic attempt to attack me personally. My post was addressed to Mani, an individual I respect and who’s opinion I value.
  
  You do not own this thread. I have repeatedly asked you not to respond to any of my posts. I am now asking you again. To me even what common sense you have, on your best day, is on a par with Rattus norvegicus effluenus.
  
  Please refrain yourself from any further attempted integration of my good graces. Your recent rejected application for employment as a south London public toilet attendant is no excuse for your display ill breeding, and bad manners.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message14

• Message 15

  , in reply to message 14.

  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Saturday, 12th November 2005

  White phosphorus is a common chemical used by all modern armies - I remember in my national service when I was talking to a guy that was in the tanks (he also was doing his national serivce) he described to me an exercise where they used a white phosphorus shell that burned a circle of 200m (radius or diameter I do not remember).
  
  I see no reason why US or UK armies that have 'carpet bombing' in their daily schedule would not use white phosphorus which is anyway less destructive on the overall than... getting rid of all uranium waste by means of bombs...
  
  Napalm weapons are also on the daily schedules of many armies. I do not think the British or the Americans use it anymore - what we know is that Turkey in the 80s was destroying 1000 kurdish villages per year by means of napalm bombs, and today UK/USA want to congratulate her for that by accepting her in the EU.
  
  So much for war ethics

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message15

• Message 16

  , in reply to message 14.

  Posted by Lord Ball (U1767246) on Saturday, 12th November 2005

  Lord Ball, Once again your lack of anything of substance to contribute has resulted in your pathetic attempt to attack me personally. My post was addressed to Mani, an individual I respect and who’s opinion I value.
  
  You do not own this thread. I have repeatedly asked you not to respond to any of my posts. I am now asking you again. To me even what common sense you have, on your best day, is on a par with Rattus norvegicus effluenus.
  
  Please refrain yourself from any further attempted integration of my good graces. Your recent rejected application for employment as a south London public toilet attendant is no excuse for your display ill breeding, and bad manners.Ìý
  
  expat, I am not going to allow you to call the brave men of the Gurkhas common mercanaries. And your little South London public toilet attendant joke was rather pathetic. And unless your English language doesn't come up to scratch, my post was also an instruction.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message16

• Message 17

  , in reply to message 16.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Saturday, 12th November 2005

  .<quote user='Lord Ball' userid='1767246'><quote user='expat32' userid='2025313'>Lord Ball, Once again your lack of anything of substance to contribute has resulted in your pathetic attempt to attack me personally. My post was addressed to Mani, an individual I respect and who’s opinion I value.
  
  You do not own this thread. I have repeatedly asked you not to respond to any of my posts. I am now asking you again. To me even what common sense you have, on your best day, is on a par with Rattus norvegicus effluenus.
  
  Please refrain yourself from any further attempted integration of my good graces. Your recent rejected application for employment as a south London public toilet attendant is no excuse for your display of ill breeding, and bad manners.</quote>
  
  expat, I am not going to allow you to call the brave men of the Gurkhas common mercanaries. And your little South London public toilet attendant joke was rather pathetic. And unless your English language doesn't come up to scratch, my post was also an instruction.</quote>
  
  
  I have never been stalked like this (especially by a ...man? ) in my entire life. Evidently you find me irresistible. I must admonish you once again. Please refrain from communicating with me. I don't go that way. I only like girls.
  
  <quote>expat, I am not going to allow you to call the brave men of the Gurkhas common mercanaries.</quote>
  
  I agree your Lordship. There is nothing common about them.
  
  <quote> And your little South London public toilet attendant joke was rather pathetic.</quote>
  
  Forgive me. I had absolutely no idea you were hired. <quote>
  
  <quote>And unless your English language doesn't come up to scratch, my post was also an instruction.</quote>
  
  By the way, It is spelled : mercenaries, and not, mercanaries

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message17

• Message 18

  , in reply to message 13.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Sunday, 13th November 2005

  Hi Expat,
  
  "Lets say the Argentinians shot them because they were illegal combatents."
  
  How would you classify illegal combatants? They were in uniform operating under the guises of Articles of war? Had they been put to death as they were Ghurkhas, then it is an illegal act.
  
  Because they’re from a foreign country, it doesn’t make them illegal, same as in the SAS we have Fijians, Kiwi’s and Aussies, they’re not illegal combatants either?
  
  
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message18

• Message 19

  , in reply to message 15.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Sunday, 13th November 2005

  E_Nikolaos_E
  
  The Royal airforce doesn't have the capacity for 'Carpet Bombing' we don't have heavy bombers anymore.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message19

• Message 20

  , in reply to message 19.

  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Sunday, 13th November 2005

  that means I exaggerated, afterall I do not have the full details, however I was wondering if carpet bombing is so dificult to achieve when countries like Turkey had it on their everyday schedule.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message20

• Message 21

  , in reply to message 20.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Sunday, 13th November 2005

  Hi E_Nikolaos_E,
  
  It depends on what you interpret as 'Carpet Bombing'. I would suggest that from the deffinition, thast bombs are saturated in a large area Turkey hasn't the ability either.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message21

• Message 22

  , in reply to message 18.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Sunday, 13th November 2005

  Good Morning Mani,
  I understand your point, but regardless of country of origin, surely the S.A.S. is regular British Army. The Gurkahs on the other hand are mercs by any definition of the word. I understand they are held with special affection by the British people, but they are not British soldiers. They are Nepalese hired guns.
  
  I'm not at all sure if mercs meet the international criteria of illegal combatants. As a professional British soldier and a member of an elite unit I wondered if your govt.’s hiring foreigners as infantry had any effect on the average squadi's (sp.?) pride.
  
  It was veterans day here on Friday, so may I take this opportunity to thank you for your service.
  
  Cheerz

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message22

• Message 23

  , in reply to message 22.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Sunday, 13th November 2005

  Afternoon Expat (Or should I say Morning for you?)
  
  I think the answer lies in what you have said, yes the SAS is a regular British Regiment and has various foreign members, as do many US regiments, Peurto Ricans, various hispanics and I served with a few Brits that Volunteered for the US army in Vietnam.
  
  But the Gurkha regiments are also Regular British regiments, they have many British Officers.
  
  "I understand they are held with special affection by the British people" I've faught with them I couldn't think of anything worse than fighting against them. They are the most polite people you would ever come across, but in battle there are no more ferocious, yet fair warriors. They are held in the absolute highest esteem by anyone that comes across them.
  
  I seem to remember a thread on this board regarding the pensions for Ghurkhas and Brits, and I am one of many that see it as yet another example of politicians stabbing soldiers in the back.
  
  "I'm not at all sure if mercs meet the international criteria of illegal combatants." By definition mercenaries aren't illigal combatants as long as certain requirements are met, ie uniform etc
  
  "As a professional British soldier and a member of an elite unit I wondered if your govt.’s hiring foreigners as infantry had any effect on the average squadi's (sp.?) pride."
  
  As I said, the Ghurkhas are one of the highest regarded regiments, there is no animosity towards them. The SAS has many ex Aussie and NZ SAS (They have their own) in their ranks. If they're good enough to get in, so be it.
  It’s remembrance Sunday here today. I should have been at the Cenotaph now, but there’s a family emergency so I'm looking after babies and I’ll be at home for an hour or two more before meeting up with my former colleagues for several Ales.
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message23

• Message 24

  , in reply to message 23.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Sunday, 13th November 2005

  Thanks Mani, Have a great day.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message24

• Message 25

  , in reply to message 24.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 14th November 2005

  Just a thought,
  
  Referring to Mani's comments on the fighting abilities of the Gurkhas and Expat's comment on whether they would be classed as legitimate POWs. Having worked with them on a fair few occasions (particularly Queens Gurkha Signals) and on one occasion seen the results of a group of Pioneers picking a fight with them (and regret it totally about 30 seconds later), I would think that the chances of an Argentinian conscript being able to take a Gurkha prisoner on the battlefield are pretty much zero. Gurkhas don't have a great tradition of surrendering!!!
  
  They are, as Mani says, born soldiers, and scary little guys at the best of times! The strangest thing I can recall is meeting a Gurkha Comms System Tech, who was midway through studying repair and maintenance of digital comms equipment who told me he had never seen a radio until 2 years ago, and was now learning to repair them. If someone can tell me how this guy being in the British Army is a bad thing, then I can't see how. He would be returning to his country after his service, a qualified and experienced electrical engineer, when before he hadn't seen a radio. How is that detrimental? People do seem to forget that the Gurkhas aren't just grunts.
  
  Cheers
  DL

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message25

• Message 26

  , in reply to message 25.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Monday, 14th November 2005

  DL, I agree with near every word. My issue is not the Gurkha. My point is the hiring of foreigners by the British Government to fight and die in place of a Brit, as a cost saving measure to boot. My beef is not about the legendary Gurkha himself. I just can't seem to get that point across at all.
  
  P.S. A Gurkha is KO’d by a mortar round. He is found by an Argentian regular. He ties him up and is hustled to the rear.
  
  Hey...it could happen yanno

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message26

• Message 27

  , in reply to message 26.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Monday, 14th November 2005

  Hi Expat,
  
  The same thing happens in the various US Military arms. Puerto Ricans and various Latino’s who are not US citizens have served and died in the Gulf, from what I understand, they expect to receive citizenship after their service. There are many Brits who still serve in the US army (Well, I know of two!!!)
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message27

• Message 28

  , in reply to message 25.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Monday, 14th November 2005

  Hi DL,
  
  Picking a fight with Ghurkhas? Almost as insane as picking a fight with a Maori. Not the done thing!
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message28

• Message 29

  , in reply to message 28.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 14th November 2005

  Yeah I know,
  
  But these were Pioneers, not exactly known for their decision making skills. They picked a fight with two Gurkhas since they were a bit small (as they are), one of the Gurkhas got cut with a bottle and all hell broke loose. The two of em went totally mental, seriously scary little guys! The reaction of the other Gurkhas when back on base when they found out about it- well, it was seriously worrying. They were not happy!! A fight with a Maori? Hell no, seriously bad mistake!
  
  Ah.... the joys of Catterick Garrison. Such a delightful place, the only place in Britain where I've seen snow in July!
  
  Cheers
  DL
  
  hope you had a good one yesterday Mani, I'm still nursing the hangover a little...
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message29

• Message 30

  , in reply to message 27.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Monday, 14th November 2005

  Hi Expat,
  
  The same thing happens in the various US Military arms. Puerto Ricans and various Latino’s who are not US citizens have served and died in the Gulf, from what I understand, they expect to receive citizenship after their service. There are many Brits who still serve in the US army (Well, I know of two!!!)
  Ìý
  
  That is true Mani, but they have immigrated to the United States and are now legal residents. P.R. is a United States protectorate.
  Any person so admitted to the U.S. and is in uniform can apply immediately for citizenship. It normally takes about five years.
  
  Cheerz.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message30

• Message 31

  , in reply to message 27.

  Posted by laforgem (U2405289) on Monday, 14th November 2005

  Puerto Ricans are US citizens from birth.
  The Puerto Rico Army National Guard maintains 48 armories, and is present in 30 communities. The Puerto Rico National Guard, like the National Guards in all 50 states, is a hybrid organization. National Guards are ordinarily under the control of state (or, in the case of Puerto Rico, Commonwealth) officials, but are organized pursuant to federal statute, and in war time or other emergencies, Guard units may be brought under federal control. Puerto Rico Army National Guard and Reserve units support USARSO's many multilateral exercises and programs. It is through this integration of our Active Army, National Guard, and Reserves that US Army South [USARSO] can maximize resources to carry out missions.
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message31

• Message 32

  , in reply to message 31.

  Posted by Disgruntled_Renegade (U530059) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005

  I dont see why Expat has such trouble with the concept of the Ghurka's. for example, French Foreign Legionaires are not shot out of hand if captured, but treated as POW's, they are not french citizens (a "reward" given upon finishing service).
  from wikipedia:
  
  "Under international law present-day British Gurkhas are not treated as mercenaries but are fully integrated soldiers of the British Army, operate in formed units of the Brigade of Gurkhas, and abide by the rules and regulations under which all British soldiers serve. Similar rules apply for Gurkhas serving in the Indian Army."
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message32

• Message 33

  , in reply to message 32.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005

  Hi Disgruntled_Renegade,
  
  
  "I dont see why Expat has such trouble with the concept of the Ghurka's" Maybe as no one bothered to explain in a civil manner exactly why they are not mercinaries?

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message33

• Message 34

  , in reply to message 33.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005

  Expat,
  
  Going back to the Argentinians and Gurkhas, another reason to doubt them capturing a Gurkha, if I remember correctly, they legged it as soon as attacked by Gurkhas and by all accounts the Gurkhas weren't too happy about it!
  
  Mani is the one to ask on this, I think his Dad fought in the Falklands.
  
  Cheers
  DL

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message34

• Message 35

  , in reply to message 34.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005

  Hi DL,
  I believe I would have outlegged the lot of them.
  
  Cheerz.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message35

• Message 36

  , in reply to message 34.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005

  DL, It's true.
  
  The Argentine officers and NCO's thought it would be a good idea to tell their conscript File that the chaps who they are facing eat you if they capture you. It had the opposite of their desired effect and many gave it toes.
  
  But to be fair, anyone facing the Ghurkhas wouldn’t ‘enjoy’ the experience
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message36

• Message 37

  , in reply to message 36.

  Posted by JimdalftheTorquoise (U1823373) on Tuesday, 15th November 2005

  Should we scurry back to the WP topic?
  
  WP grenades operate like hand held napalm bombs... they are incendiary in nature and nearly impossible to extinguish when all over the garments you are wearing
  
  Known as "Willie Petes" by US forces in vietnam, and used extensively during WW2, at the very least in 155mm howitzers (almost certainly in smaller calibre weapons, but I cannot remember any account off hand)
  
  They airbursted above the enemy and drifted down like snow onto the static defensive positions, burning wherever they fell... on armoured foes they often set the outside of the vehicle on fire, making the crew abandon it when no actual damage was done
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message37

• Message 38

  , in reply to message 37.

  Posted by gooserss (U1983611) on Wednesday, 16th November 2005

  the us today admitted it used wp in valujah last year.

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message38

• Message 39

  , in reply to message 35.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Friday, 18th November 2005

  Hi DL,
  I believe I would have outlegged the lot of them.
  
  Cheerz.Ìý
  
  Me too mate,
  
  Even in an AFV, I still wouldn't want to play against them!
  
  Cheers
  

  Link to this forum: White Phosphourous used in the Falklands?

  Report message39

Back to top