Wars and ConflictsΜύ permalink
Movies- a biased account of warfare.
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by Lt_Henson (U2436367) on Tuesday, 8th November 2005
We all know (hopefully) that stratigies varied tremendously in WW2 and in most war films, such as for example Saving Private Ryan, they only ever talk about 'Whipping round the flanks somehow'. Sure it was a great film, but does this mean we are starting to stereotype tactics in a vain attempt to try and get viewers to understand a plot?
And yes i am new to the boards.
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Message 2
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 8th November 2005
Re: Message 1.
Lieutenant (?) Henson,
welcome to the boards.
Kind regards. -
Message 3
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Wednesday, 9th November 2005
LT,
Films are entertainment, nothing more. They shouldn't be considered historical documents, as hardly any are accurate (With the exception of Gettysberg). Their aim is to entertain, not inform of fact. -
Message 4
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Wednesday, 9th November 2005
Morning all,
Movies are a totally biased account of any kind of war. This is simply proven through the level of realism, and in many ways the lack of realism serves to glorify, and sanitise warfare.
"Saving Private Ryan" does have one positive aspect to it, although tactically it is a load of rubbish, and that is the level of realism it portrayed. Anyone who has seen actual combat knows full well that when people are hit, they don't slump heroically to the ground, and say "Tell Ma I love her" as they did in many a cliched war movie. War is violence, extreme violence, it is confusion, noise, destruction and even more violence. The opening sequence to "Saving Private Ryan" is the only part of a movie I have ever seen which manages to portray the chaos and violence of being under fire to the viewer. In that respect this film does deserve some credit.
On the other hand LT, as any veteran of any war knows, War is mainly long periods of sitting around waiting for something to happen, punctuated by periods of extreme violence and terror. I've never seen an accurate portrayal of the realism of war, and doubt that 99% sitting around doing nothing would be a box office smash!
As Mani says (Morning Mani, hope all is well!), they are entertainment first, reality second.
Cheers
DL -
Message 5
Posted by Dirk Marinus (U1648073) on Wednesday, 9th November 2005
DL,
you put it across in a perfect manner.
I fully agree with you by saying that not one film or even book can describe what actually did happen irrespective of what they are trying to portray. -
Message 6
Posted by Lt_Henson (U2436367) on Wednesday, 9th November 2005
i have to say i only partly agree with you. look at 'the longest day' and 'a bridge too far' both are as accurate as could be, yes i agree not all maybe true and bits maybe overdramatic but the main objective for all these films was an accurate depiction of the events, men and times that took part.
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Message 7
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Wednesday, 9th November 2005
Morning DL!!
Hope all is well. What you doing on Sunday? Local Cenotaph? -
Message 8
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Wednesday, 9th November 2005
Hi LT.
I couldn't disagree more. The Longest day was far from accurate in too many aspects, much like a Bridge too far.
Yes, both films have elements that are based in facts, but it's a different thing to say the entire film is accurate.
I agree with DL that far too many films don't even come close to the horror of combat, but the opening scene did come close in Saving Private Ryan. -
Message 9
Posted by Lt_Henson (U2436367) on Wednesday, 9th November 2005
Are you a veteran?
I am not.
I wish i was, and wasn't.
today is too modern, yet i fell to many fell,
and it sounds wrong to say 'i love war' but i do. i am sorry but without it nothing would be as it is today and it interests me greatly.
yes some of it is inacuurate but does it matter? these films are not here to entertain, but in memery to those who fell, for me, you and everybody else. -
Message 10
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Wednesday, 9th November 2005
On the other hand LT, as any veteran of any war knows, War is mainly long periods of sitting around waiting for something to happen, punctuated by periods of extreme violence and terror. I've never seen an accurate portrayal of the realism of war, and doubt that 99% sitting around doing nothing would be a box office smash!
ΆΩ³’Μύ
Das Boot? The TV version, at least. An awful lot of not much happening in that. -
Message 11
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Thursday, 10th November 2005
Morning Mani!
Sunday is going to be off to church for me.
Then several beverages with the old WW2 boys down the pub. Always a weird one for me, didn't lose any good mates in actual ops, but several have gone afterwards. Might have to polish the old medals up and stick them on.
LT, an very unusual statement. I'm interested to know, are you in the military at the moment (user name sort of hints at it). I was also "in love with war" as you put it, as many young men seem to be, so I can understand the sentiment. However, actually being involved in one tends to cure you of that permanently. I can't second your statement on war films being there as an act of remembrance, although in some small way I guess they are. "A Bridge too far" is the only one I can think of which does justice to those who took part, and from my own time in green, the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ series "Warriors" on the UN operations in Bosnia, that was a little too close to home for me, I found it very difficult to watch, purely because it was a very accurate portrayal of the huge cock-up that was the UN's attempt to "keep the peace" as Yugoslavia self-destructed. Its portrayal of events as they happened has to be commended, but it probably made poor ratings, no one wants to watch a dirty war on TV, and that one was particularly dirty. Most are simply entertainment. The rest simply do not do justice to those who fought for us, there isn't enough realism that could do that.
Cheers
DL -
Message 12
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Thursday, 10th November 2005
Hi LT,
I am a veteran. Like DL I served in the Balkans and in the First Gulf war (Desert Shield/Storm) as well as Northern Ireland and many other places.
I do find it hard to understand it when you say you love war, yet havenβt seen it, maybe I think you mean you like certain elements of warfare?
As DL says, a few moments of the nitty gitty soon cures people of a love of war, and if that doesnβt, the after effects certainly will. Thatβs one thing that movies donβt tend to go into too much β the after effects of war mentally on those who participated. Taking lives, having close friends have theirs taken, wounds and severe injuries, near misses, seeing both the best and worst that humanity has to offer.
βyes some of it is inacuurate but does it matter? these films are not here to entertainβ This statement seems to be contradictory? They are inaccurate because they are there to entertain not to portray events? -
Message 13
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Thursday, 10th November 2005
Morning Mani,
All is well out here in the sticks. I think the attraction towards war is actually generated through films. What we see in a war film is a diluted sanitised version (Private Ryan Omaha scene not included) of what combat is like. In films they try to portray the excitement and the adrenaline kick that goes with it(you know what I mean), but they leave out the absolute cack-your-pants terror feeling you feel the first time a round cracks past your head. That would probably not make good TV, a bloke hitting the deck faster than he's ever moved shouted "S**T!!!!!!!!" at the top of his voice, neither would the moment when the guy opposite you scrapes something off his boot, then realises it's a bit of someones hand and pukes all over you!
These things are equally as much a part of war as charging across the desert in a Warrior, blasting away with a 30mm cannon.
You got it spot on there Mani, war demonstrates the finest qualities in humanity, and also demonstrates the worst things mankind is capable of, and we are capable of some really crappy things (understatement).
As Baldrick says....
"Hear the song I sing,
War's a horrid thing,
So I sing sing sing,
Tingalingaling"
(His German Guns poem is much better!)
Cheers
DL -
Message 14
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Thursday, 10th November 2005
Some great posts on this thread. As far as war films go, do any of the veterans here think "All Quiet on the Western Front" stacks up at all? I thought it was a great anti-war movie, but the realism of war was probably not achieved, although the sense of futility of war is there.
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Message 15
Posted by Lt_Henson (U2436367) on Thursday, 10th November 2005
I am not in the military, and have never been in it. it would be quiet hard, seens i have not....
how do you say... left school yet. yes. i am a schoolboy.
yes, you could say i am in love with 'certain elements of warfare' but i also understand the 'nitty-gritty' things. i have seen things that although i agree are nothing quite like war injuries, come close. my sister almost died at the age of 5, supected meningitus, she didn't move for two weeks. my arm i broke twice, one time not relising till the following day after sleeping with it. broken my collar bone which is real painful having no cast put on it. i admire any man who has put his life at risk, and i pleased that you are actually listening to me.
someone mention no pyshcolodigcal films, but what about 'born on the forth of july?'
and just because im a teen doesn't mean i cannot handle things like life and death. -
Message 16
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Thursday, 10th November 2005
I am not in the military, and have never been in it. it would be quiet hard, seens i have not....
how do you say... left school yet. yes. i am a schoolboy.
yes, you could say i am in love with 'certain elements of warfare' but i also understand the 'nitty-gritty' things. i have seen things that although i agree are nothing quite like war injuries, come close. my sister almost died at the age of 5, supected meningitus, she didn't move for two weeks. my arm i broke twice, one time not relising till the following day after sleeping with it. broken my collar bone which is real painful having no cast put on it. i admire any man who has put his life at risk, and i pleased that you are actually listening to me.
someone mention no pyshcolodigcal films, but what about 'born on the forth of july?'
and just because im a teen doesn't mean i cannot handle things like life and death.
Μύ
I think most of us had guessed your age already. Credit to you for visiting these boards and contributing. Hopefully you will learn a lot if you continue that (even if it is only how to improve your spelling). If you are going to contribute, though, be prepared to be challenged. There are a lot of people with expert knowledge here and older people than you have been caught out before. In relation to war, one thing history teaches you is that there is very little glorious about it. Don't believe what you see in films. -
Message 17
Posted by Lt_Henson (U2436367) on Thursday, 10th November 2005
i only believe what i believe.
many people believe different things and until anything is absolutly proven, people should respect that.
yes, i do know that i am...erm... less mature than others on this webpage, but i like to think of one of the few young people today who doesn't just think of war as a 'glorious thing' and that meanings and lessons are to be learnt from theose who sacrificed.
p.s. i know my spelling is bad. thanks for pointing that out to everyone. -
Message 18
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Thursday, 10th November 2005
Well said. Don't let my jibes at your spelling put you off. It's a pet hate of mine. As I say, credit to you for visiting these boards.
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Message 19
Posted by Lt_Henson (U2436367) on Thursday, 10th November 2005
Thank you. How long did you serve and in what regiment?
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Message 20
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Thursday, 10th November 2005
Never been in the services. I've just read a lot of books over the past forty-odd years.
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Message 21
Posted by Lt_Henson (U2436367) on Thursday, 10th November 2005
oh. it might have been Mani who was in the services. d'oh
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Message 22
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 11th November 2005
LT,
I served three years in the Kings regiment, three years in the Parachute regiment, 6 or so years in the Parachute Regiment Special Operations group β A glutton for punishment really. Beware of Paraβs, weβre an obnoxious breed who think that our regiment has no equal, Marines donβt come close (Although they say the same about us).
DL, although I can't remember what division, was in an Armoured division, there are some 'older' squadies who did their military service back in the 50's and served in Cyprus etc.
There are also a few ex US servicemen who come onto the board. -
Message 23
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 11th November 2005
Morning DL,
We have blokes flying in from all over, one from Durban in South Africa, one from Canada, a few down from Scotland, one even from Liverpool (God save us!)
My Old man and his mates come also, yet again from all over the world.
It's always a good time for us, to see each other again.
Although it is sad to see the number of Second World War veterans dwindling every year, there are no More Great War vets at our cenotaph, when I was a lad there were quite a few. -
Message 24
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 11th November 2005
I am not in the military, and have never been in it. it would be quiet hard, seens i have not....
how do you say... left school yet. yes. i am a schoolboy.
yes, you could say i am in love with 'certain elements of warfare' but i also understand the 'nitty-gritty' things. i have seen things that although i agree are nothing quite like war injuries, come close. my sister almost died at the age of 5, supected meningitus, she didn't move for two weeks. my arm i broke twice, one time not relising till the following day after sleeping with it. broken my collar bone which is real painful having no cast put on it. i admire any man who has put his life at risk, and i pleased that you are actually listening to me.
someone mention no pyshcolodigcal films, but what about 'born on the forth of july?'
and just because im a teen doesn't mean i cannot handle things like life and death.
Μύ
Hi LT,
I don't want to sound patronising, so forgive me if that's how it comes over, but the 'nitty gritty' of warfare is a beast that you just can't understand unless you've been through it.
I understand when you say you've witnessed the death of someone close, and felt extreme physical pain, but it's just not the same as what you face in battle, or even more so, what you go through after battle.
Wilfred Owen was right "Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori" is the old lie. There's nothing sweet or right about what happens in battle.
In regards to 'Born on the 4th July, yes, you are right, this does come close in many elements, but obviously, many are unique to the Vietnam war and what troops went through and after that conflict. -
Message 25
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Friday, 11th November 2005
Morning all,
Unlike Mani I didn't jump out of planes! My background is started out as a Warrior driver, then commander, then switched to Electronic Warfare after 4 years, and spent another 6 years on that, pottering round the world listening in other people's radio traffic! It's probably a desk job now, not done in the back of a wagon! Total sell out on my part, since at that time EW was the best paid job in the Army (don't know if it still is, they have all sorts of weird techie jobs now!).
My heart will always be with the armoured lads though, excellent times, and there is no finer sight than a mass of Challengers and Warriors charging across a plain.
Happy days...
DL -
Message 26
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 11th November 2005
DL, you're being too kind, I jumped out of perfectly sound aircraft; Not the actions of a bright spark!
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Message 27
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Friday, 11th November 2005
I'm way too scared of heights for that sort of thing mate!
That nasty assault course you guys do scares the life out of me!!! Although having said that, some airborne guys I worked with reckoned that being sat in an AFV was scary-too big a target and all that. I suppose its just each to their own!!
Cheers -
Message 28
Posted by Lt_Henson (U2436367) on Friday, 11th November 2005
Mani.
yes I understand that it would be near enough impossible for me to understand... but then nobody really understands much these days...
Iraq war, 9/11, july 7th...etc.
and I did have vertigo real bad until bout 2 years ago when i 1st climbed chichenitza- a mayan civilisation pyramid in mexico and two, climbed the seconded biggest mountain in dovedale park.
I am pleased with that even though i will never fully get over it. When I am older i plan to try skydiving/paragliding.
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