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For want of a horse shoe nail.

• Message 1.Μύ

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Saturday, 29th October 2005

  Most of you have heard of Chris Ryan. He is a kick butt S.A.S. soldier. That in itself tells us his high level of professionalism.
  When he set out for a disastrous mission in Iraq (of which he was not the NCOIC ) his means of transport after insertion was on foot. His patrol behind Iraqi lines would last for several days. He set out wearing the same pair of socks he had on for the last 6 days. He was humping/tabbing ? over 100 lbs, every ounce precious of course, and not a spare pair of socks on him. The outcome was predictable.
  
  On British Nuclear Submarines I was honestly shocked to learn there are no facilities for, and crewmembers are not expected to, bathe or shower.This includes the mess staff. Bearing in mind a lack of personal hygiene can at minimum, seriously degrade a units performance, are these anomalies in the system, or are these S.O.P.'s in the British military.
  

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 31st October 2005

  Most of you have heard of Chris Ryan. He is a kick butt S.A.S. soldier. That in itself tells us his high level of professionalism.
  When he set out for a disastrous mission in Iraq (of which he was not the NCOIC ) his means of transport after insertion was on foot. His patrol behind Iraqi lines would last for several days. He set out wearing the same pair of socks he had on for the last 6 days. He was humping/tabbing ? over 100 lbs, every ounce precious of course, and not a spare pair of socks on him. The outcome was predictable.
  
  On British Nuclear Submarines I was honestly shocked to learn there are no facilities for, and crewmembers are not expected to, bathe or shower.This includes the mess staff. Bearing in mind a lack of personal hygiene can at minimum, seriously degrade a units performance, are these anomalies in the system, or are these S.O.P.'s in the British military.
  Μύ
  
  Hi Expat,
  
  Don't know the answer with respect to submarines, but I would think that they have pretty adequate washing facilities, they are after all nuclear powered the same as yours, so have the same massive amounts of electrical power available for generation of fresh water. But then I may be wrong.
  
  As for the Bravo Two Zero patrol, the reason why Chris Ryan was in such a bad way after his escape (which was a monumental effort, and probably the only positive note in the entire FUBAR mission) was mainly due to the fact that when they were compromised, and then attacked by Iraqi forces, they lost most of their equipment when making their escape. They would have been carrying adequate supplies of clothing in their bergans (big huge rucksacks), along with their food and water supplies. As they were attacked, standard procedure is to dump your bergan, then fight (it is a bit impossible to fight a small unit engagement while carrying 100lbs of equipment on your back), then return to collect your equipment after the engagement. As they had to leg it, they only had their fighting order gear with them (weapons, ammunition, basic food and water). Since the weather changed dramatically once they had lost their equipment, they were in danger of suffering from hypothermia and many of the patrol members actually died of it. Ryan was extremely lucky (as well as being well trained) that he didn't succumb too, but his feet would have suffered horribly from walking over 150 miles in wet socks. Having thought about it, it would be a sensible idea to carry spare socks in your PLCE gear, but I must admit, I always had them in my bergan (safely stowed in a Warrior of course, no need to carry it!) but never put them in my fighting order webbing.
  
  Cheers
  DL

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Lord Ball (U1767246) on Monday, 31st October 2005

  
  
  On British Nuclear Submarines I was honestly shocked to learn there are no facilities for, and crewmembers are not expected to, bathe or shower.This includes the mess staff. Bearing in mind a lack of personal hygiene can at minimum, seriously degrade a units performance, are these anomalies in the system, or are these S.O.P.'s in the British military.
  Μύ
  
  I can shed some partial light on this one, expat. As far as my knowledge goes, the Royal Navy's SSNs use 'navy showers'. I'm not too clued up on what that means(anyone?). But rest assured, expat, our nuclear submarines are commanded by the best in the world. And that, is most definetely, a fact.

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Mark (U2073932) on Monday, 31st October 2005

  I would honestly say that considering we are supposed to have the finest fighting forces in the world, why can't we equip our troops with the adequate equipment. Borrowing boots off the yanks, rubbish SA80's, and radios with the wrong frequencies.
  
  All tv ads say be the best, and then they amalgamate regiments, decommission ships and buy totally inferior planes.
  
  Better equipment less fat cats at the MOD

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Lord Ball (U1767246) on Monday, 31st October 2005

  Eurofighter Typhoon isn't an inferior plane.

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Monday, 31st October 2005

  
  Hi Expat,
  
  Don't know the answer with respect to submarines, but I would think that they have pretty adequate washing facilities, they are after all nuclear powered the same as yours, so have the same massive amounts of electrical power available for generation of fresh water. But then I may be wrong.Μύ
  
  I can't figure it out either.
  
  As for the Bravo Two Zero patrol, the reason why Chris Ryan was in such a bad way after his escape (which was a monumental effort, and probably the only positive note in the entire FUBAR mission) was mainly due to the fact that when they were compromised, and then attacked by Iraqi forces, they lost most of their equipment when making their escape. They would have been carrying adequate supplies of clothing in their bergans (big huge rucksacks), along with their food and water supplies. As they were attacked, standard procedure is to dump your bergan, then fight (it is a bit impossible to fight a small unit engagement while carrying 100lbs of equipment on your back), then return to collect your equipment after the engagement. As they had to leg it, they only had their fighting order gear with them (weapons, ammunition, basic food and water). Since the weather changed dramatically once they had lost their equipment, they were in danger of suffering from hypothermia and many of the patrol members actually died of it. Ryan was extremely lucky (as well as being well trained) that he didn't succumb too, but his feet would have suffered horribly from walking over 150 miles in wet socks. Having thought about it, it would be a sensible idea to carry spare socks in your PLCE gear, but I must admit, I always had them in my bergan (safely stowed in a Warrior of course, no need to carry it!) but never put them in my fighting order webbing.
  
  Cheers
  DLΜύ
  
  
  You can hardly compare what a tanker would carry compared to an infantryman. Why did he set off with minging socks to begin with?
  If Ryan was lucky, I figure he made his own luck. As Marni would say, he's as hard as coffin nails.
  
  

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by Lord Ball (U1767246) on Monday, 31st October 2005

  I'm glad you acknowlegded my post. So good to see you again, expat.

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Monday, 31st October 2005

  
  I can shed some partial light on this one, expat. As far as my knowledge goes, the Royal Navy's SSNs use 'navy showers'. I'm not too clued up on what that means(anyone?). But rest assured, expat, our nuclear submarines are commanded by the best in the world. And that, is most definetely, a fact.Μύ
  
  No one asked about Navy Showers, and no one asked your opinion on submarine commanders. I most certainly did not respond to your post, in fact I sincerely wish you would totally ignore all my posts. Your irrelevant mutter about your pseudo patriotic Parroting of long lost British military elitism is lowering the tone of this entire board, and a waste of good cyber space.
  

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by Lord Ball (U1767246) on Tuesday, 1st November 2005

  Not my opinion, expat. Ask a US Navy submarine commander and they'll tell you that it's the British who have the best commanders. The Navy Showers thing is what you wanted to know though. That's the system for showering used on Royal Navy submarines.

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 1st November 2005

  Morning Expat,
  
  You wrote "You can hardly compare what a tanker would carry compared to an infantryman. Why did he set off with minging socks to begin with?
  If Ryan was lucky, I figure he made his own luck. As Marni would say, he's as hard as coffin nails."
  
  Only Ryan knows the answer to that one, but in my opinion I would say that he lost them with his bergan, but if he deployed on an op without decent socks, particularly an op on foot, then he seriously screwed up! I personally never took Army socks into the field, I always thought they were substandard (like most of our equipment!), and bred athlete's foot way too easy, so when going on operations or even exercises, I always relied on Nike's finest! They were much more comfortable!
  
  Agreed though, the bloke is tough as old boot leather. I didn't really have much of an opinion on him until recently, when the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ did a series called "Hunting Chris Ryan" where he was basically set a load of escape and evasion missions in the Arctic, tropical rainforest, the South African Veldt, and the middle of Siberia, and a load of ex-SAS, Airborne and Green Berets were sent out to try to catch him.
  If memory serves me correctly, he got away every single time (it was close on a couple of them though). Pretty good TV too!
  
  Cheers
  

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Tuesday, 1st November 2005

  Howd'y DL,
  We are starting to agree on things again. I must see what I can do about that. Ryan is one heck of a guy. What an asset he would be as an escape and evasion instructor. I will for sure look out for that TV show.
  
  Cheers.

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 1st November 2005

  Agreed again (What is going on???).
  
  I did the escape and evasion course many years ago, alongside some of your boys, and it was the hardest course in my entire army career. The instructor on catching food (the delights of raw fish,,,) was a real character, a Mid-western infantry Sergeant Major, who looked like a stereotypical survivalist nut, and kept talking about the "commie Russians" all the time despite this being 1992, and the Iron Curtain had already fallen....
  
  He knew his stuff though! Anyway, back to Ryan. Having seen the programme, I have nothing but respect for the guy, doing a repeat performance on escape and evasion again and again, since when I did the course, out of 60 men (30 Brits, 30 US), only 12 actually escaped (3 teams of 4, 2 Brits, 2 US). I am proud to say I was one of the ones who got away-good job too really, we had a run in with the hunter force and gave a few of em a good kicking, so we REALLY didn't want to be caught, we would have had a real rough time. Once we were off and running though, it was quite fun, like being an outlaw for two weeks, pinching everything that wasn't nailed down and trying to stay off the radar. I still reckon one of the teams cheated, they had a Vehicle Mechanic in their team and they simply pinched a car, drove to one of the guys girlfriends house, and holed up there for two weeks!
  
  Sorry mate, enough with the war stories!
  
  DL

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 1st November 2005

  Just noticed something-
  
  Lord Ball,
  I have to disagree there, the Eurofighter is not up to standard when you compare it to the US stealth stuff. It was also way over budget, and late. We'd have been better just buying the F15.
  
  DL

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• Message 14

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Tuesday, 1st November 2005

  Agreed again (What is going on???).
  
  I did the escape and evasion course many years ago, alongside some of your boys, and it was the hardest course in my entire army career. The instructor on catching food (the delights of raw fish,,,) was a real character, a Mid-western infantry Sergeant Major, who looked like a stereotypical survivalist nut, and kept talking about the "commie Russians" all the time despite this being 1992, and the Iron Curtain had already fallen....Μύ
  
  I can just imagine that, that's funny.
  
  He knew his stuff though! Anyway, back to Ryan. Having seen the programme, I have nothing but respect for the guy, doing a repeat performance on escape and evasion again and again, since when I did the course, out of 60 men (30 Brits, 30 US), only 12 actually escaped (3 teams of 4, 2 Brits, 2 US). I am proud to say I was one of the ones who got away-good job too really, we had a run in with the hunter force and gave a few of em a good kicking, so we REALLY didn't want to be caught, we would have had a real rough time. Once we were off and running though, it was quite fun, like being an outlaw for two weeks, pinching everything that wasn't nailed down and trying to stay off the radar. I still reckon one of the teams cheated, they had a Vehicle Mechanic in their team and they simply pinched a car, drove to one of the guys girlfriends house, and holed up there for two weeks!
  
  Sorry mate, enough with the war stories!
  
  DLΜύ
  
  Actually that was very interesting. The U.S. has a survival school in Nevada for pilots, and a jungle survival school in Panama. I believe the Brits have something similar in New Guinea.

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