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Junichiro Koizumi

• Message 1.Μύ

  Posted by insomnia2005 (U2300714) on Monday, 24th October 2005

  Japanese Premier Junichiro Koizumi made another controversial visit to Yaskuni Shrine.
  
  He has to be criticized for attempting to glorify its past aggression on neighboring state.
  
  He must be aware of the importance of retaining an accurate and correct perspective on the past wrongdoings and history for true reconciliation and mutual trust among nations and people in region.
  
  

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Monday, 24th October 2005

  I suppose it comes down to prospective...
  
  Does he deem that he is "attempting to glorify its past aggression on neighboring state." Or that he's honouring the dead as part of his religion and culture?
  
  "accurate and correct perspective" Somewhat subjective??
  
  

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Monday, 24th October 2005

  Japanese Premier Junichiro Koizumi made another controversial visit to Yaskuni Shrine.
  
  He has to be criticized for attempting to glorify its past aggression on neighboring state.
  
  He must be aware of the importance of retaining an accurate and correct perspective on the past wrongdoings and history for true reconciliation and mutual trust among nations and people in region.
  
  Μύ
  
  It always puzzles me that people get so worked up about him going to what is to all intents and purposes a cemetary, dressed in ceremonial robes to act according to his religous beliefs.
  
  In what ways does this glorify the past?

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 24th October 2005

  Hi Rich,
  
  Hope all is well.
  I think the problem lies in the nature of this shrine in the first place. I'm going from memory here so apologies if I'm wrong. The shrine contains photographs of many Japanese war dead, but the problem is that some of these pictures are of war criminals, who carried out some of the savage, inhuman atrocities that the Japanese considered so normal during WW2.
  I too find it shocking that this man, basically the prime minister of Japan publicly honours war criminals. It is exactly the same as the German Prime minister laying flowers on the grave of Adolf Eichmann. Distasteful, and downright wrong. He is honouring genocidal murderers. No wonder the Chinese get so mad about it.
  
  Call it religious belief, call it what you like, not only should Koizuni not visit the Yakasuni shrine, it is my opinion that the shrine should be burnt down. Worshipping murderers? Since when is that civilised?
  
  Rant over.
  

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• Message 5

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  Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Monday, 24th October 2005

  Hi Dark
  
  Everything is good here, nice weekend, plenty to drink, just a pity that its Monday all over again. However, I have a Scotland trip to look forward to on Saturday, up to Loch Inver.
  
  Reading your post shows how emotive the subject can be, but my understanding of ancestor worship is that you worship your own, not someone else’s. You might honour all the souls residing there, but your worship is to your own. In addition, as was the case during the war we hit the wall of comparing and judging Japanese culture and society by our own. Judging them by their own society rules and what would be the result, I wonder. The JPM is not the only person who goes to the shrine, which as I understand is one of the largest in Japan. Yes I find it odd that convicted war criminals are interred there, but also China should be careful, they are not an innocent nation, yes they suffered horrendously during their war with Japan which lasted what? 20 odd years or so but China hasn't always been the innocent party. Think of Tibet, a country still occupied and downtrodden suffering from a Hanisation even Hitler would have been proud of in Eastern Europe.
  
  I stand by Koizuni being able to visit the shrine until it is proven that he is worshipping the war criminals directly, simply being in the same shrine as their ashes is not in itself a war crime and I do often feel that esp the Chinese play on those visits for political reasons and not because it is offensive to them and by the same token Koizuni still goes there in such a public manner to show that Japan is prepared to be pushed round over the war any more. It is a whole new cold war brewing in the east, with Japan and China resuming their centuries old antagonism.
  

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 24th October 2005

  Hi Rich,
  
  All good here, been househunting on two Greek Islands over the weekend, my escape from the UK plan is well underway. Shame to be back here and its been raining all day, and yesterday I was swimming in the Aegean in 80 degree heat...bliss.
  I'll stick some pics on the SmartGroup site later.
  
  Anyway, back on topic.
  Agreed China isn't exactly the most benevolent of neighbours, and its record in interference with its neighbours isn't good (Vietnam, Korea, Tibet), but so many Chinese died at the hands of the Japanese that they don't even know how many, you can see their side of the shrine argument. Remember that atrocities against China by Japan were seriously nasty (use of bio-weapons, medical research on civilians, Nanking and so on...) and the Japanese have never really been too apologetic about it. There is a major racial issue involved at the heart of it, on both sides the general feeling is that the other is racially inferior (without even touching on the race issue with regards to westerners-the word the Japanese use is Gaijin I believe, and if my memory serves me correctly the literal translation is "barbarian", and the Chinese have a similar word but I can't remember it!) so there are massive rifts involved, and Koizumi is not helping the situation. China is the next superpower, whether we westerners like it or not, and there will be trouble ahead!
  
  Cheers
  DL

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Monday, 24th October 2005

  Oh on that there can be no argument, China will be the next superpower and God help the Americans when they finally get their blue water fleet up and running, cos at the moment they're still a mostly brown water fleet, but with increasing blue water capability, and again I can agree that their collective view of the west is about the only thing they both could be made to agree on.
  
  God help us all if they're little spats ever develop into something else, cos with China getting militant it has driven the Japanese into considering altering their constitution to allow room for a full fledged military as well as first strike options as opposed to simple home island defence to which they are restricted to at the moment

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• Message 8

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  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Tuesday, 25th October 2005

  Russian, UK and US army forces are also murderers of a considerable scale (no, USSR army is by far the champion but within their state: their regime killed 50,000,000 Russians and others) but then nobody would accuse Putin, Bush and Blair if they would honour the dead soldiers of their country.
  
  Just because US-UK-Russia were victorious in the 2nd world war does not render them morally superior to the defeated.
  
  If US/UK officials did not want Koizumi to honour the dead men of his country (murderes yes but then these were their soldiers) they could just nice impose their own regime on Japan in 1945 and hold them as a conquered land. If they opted to leave Japan independent (as if...) then Koizumi has every moral right (not to say obligation) to honour the dead soldiers of his country.

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 25th October 2005

  Just as a little post-script Rich,
  
  I have massive difficulties taking the Chinese Navy seriously, its official title is too weird I'm afraid...
  
  The People's Liberation Army Navy.
  
  Just makes me think of the People's Front of Judaea I'm afraid. Stupid name!
  No doubt when they have a couple of nuclear powered carriers parked off the Norfolk coast, I won't think they're funny anymore! In the meantime however, I shall continue to laugh at their name! (and tweak the nose of the dreadful spindly killer fish....)
  
  Cheers
  DL

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Dude_lebowski (U2313651) on Wednesday, 26th October 2005

  "It always puzzles me that people get so worked up about him going to what is to all intents and purposes a cemetary, dressed in ceremonial robes to act according to his religous beliefs.
  
  In what ways does this glorify the past? "
  
  I think you are missing the point here. "worked up" as you call it betrays a slight ignorance on your part. It is the significance of the act that is questionable and insensitive. Entombed in the Yasukuni shrine are the remains of grade A Japanese war criminals (convicted of the worst war crimes and atrocities).By visiting the shrine, Koizumi is paying homage to these men. Having lived in Japan I am well aware of Japanese customs and know that this is not an attempt to "glorify" the past. More accurately it is certainly Koizumi's, and by proxy, Japan's way of saying thank you to them for what they 'gave' to Imperial Japan. This is obviously highly insensitive and disrespectful to the Chinese and Koreans whose citizens suffered unimaginably at the hands of these criminals. Koizumi, as a leader and figurehead, has a responsibility to act in a sensible and respectful manner. I think sensitivity is the catchword here.
  Lets put it a different way...
  What if Gerhard Schroeder was to visit and pay homage at the graves of Goebbels and Eichman every year under the auspices of religious observance? I don't think the French, British and Jewish community would look to favourably on that, do you? The analogy is a tad trite but you see my point.

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Wednesday, 26th October 2005

  yes but since our religious beliefs are vastly different to that of the Japanese, if Schroder were to visit the grave of Goebbel's then I would suspect him of doing slightly more than just paying his respects.
  
  Given the increasingly highly charged atmosphere of the northern Pacific Rim I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were doing this on purpose since Japan can not really act in an "agressive" manner vis foreign policy so instead shows her increasing foreign self belief through these acts.
  
  Certainly the Chinese and to a lesser extent the Koreans make vast political mileage out of each visit, with vastly out of proportion responses.
  
  I do not deny Japans actions in the war, personally I think they have never adequetly apologised for their actions in the same way the Germany was made to, however, 1945 is a long time ago. There comes a point when bashing someone over their historic actions becomes simply a political weapon not aimed at addressing the suffering but used agressively as in the way that China uses it now.

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by Dude_lebowski (U2313651) on Wednesday, 26th October 2005

  I appreciate that our religions are very different but that wasn't really the point I was trying to make. You took it a little too literally
  "I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were doing this on purpose since Japan can not really act in an "agressive" manner vis foreign policy so instead shows her increasing foreign self belief through these acts"
  Visits to shrines and paying homage to the deceased is deeply woven facet of Japanese society. Hence, to imply that Japan has 'decided' to start these visits to up the ante in the Pacific rim and reassert herself, as you do, is innaccurate I feel. The point (whether justified or not) is that there is a feeling that Japan has never fully or sincerely apologised for it's atrocities. When viewed alongside Koizumi visiting the Yasukuni shrine this obviously appears disrespectful. It is precisely because of this that 'mileage', as you call it, has been made out of it by the Koreans and Chinese. Its the hen and the egg scenario I think. The Koreans and Chinese continue to act so vociferously and claim disrespect while the prime minister keeps visiting the shrine. The situation self-perpetuates.
  Of course, added to this, the Japanese caused uproar by creating Government endorsed History textbooks which slightly rewrote history and omitted Japanese atrocities. Viewed from this perspective, the Chinese and Korean complaints look less like ammunition for 'political mileage' and more like genuine concerns about the lack of a sincere Japanese apology.

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Wednesday, 26th October 2005

  Hi Dude
  
  I agree with you totally on the History Textbook front. That was uncalled for and is down right dishonest of the Japanese educational establishment to promote such a distorted view of the past. Like the Germans, the Japanese need to learn about their past including events like Nanking.
  
  I feel I wasnt too clear in my point about the increasing visability of the Shrine worship. I did not mean to imply that Japan had "decided" to visit, simply that the increased visability of such visits are a message rather than the visit itself.
  
  I also agree that unlike the other Axis powers Japanese appolgies have never quite seemed sincere or full, but again, viewed from the Japanese would this seem the case?
  
  Yes, this situation is self-perpetuating, all three countries seem to take an equally stubborn position on this matter. Japan feels that it has apologised enough, the others that it has barely begun. Such a situation added to an increasing belcosity in China's foreign affairs is bound to increase tensions if Japan does not bow to China's tacit orders, esp added to the mixed messages that Japan gives out over Taiwan and the increasing tensions over the Sea of Japan and other underlying border issues (esp where these areas contain or are thought to contain valuable mineral resources)
  
  I believe that part of this is the increased visability rather than the act itself of ancestor worship has caused such headlines

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