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Blue on Blue

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Bishwarrior (U1759943) on Wednesday, 28th September 2005

  Despite a Defence Budget larger than the GDP of some countries, the US military clearly has a problem telling from from foe in war. Not only do we have the several incidents already mentioned involving British troops there are others. One incident involved two USAF F-15s shooting down a USAF Black Hawk Helicopter in Northern Iraq. Even though the helo was covered in large US flags and the F-15 pilots made several passes, they still thought it was a Iraqi Hind and shot it out of the sky.
  
  How can such a powerful nation be trusted when it is full of incompetant idiots.

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Trident_MKII (U1823460) on Wednesday, 28th September 2005

  i was just thinking today, how on earth could some stupid patriot missile battery operator shoot one of our tornados down
  
  

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by Kilted Man - The Return (U2103467) on Wednesday, 28th September 2005

  I think it goes back to what was said in an earlier post; the US Army seems to rely on their equipment and vast resources, rather than thier wits and judgement when presented with a situation such as those mentioned. There must be some explanation for the 'Blue on Blue' which seems to happen everytime the USA go to war.
  
  K.M

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Thursday, 29th September 2005

  <QUOTE' USER='Bishwarrior' USERID='1759943'>Despite a Defence Budget larger than the GDP of some countries, the US military clearly has a problem telling from from foe in war. Not only do we have the several incidents already mentioned involving British troops there are others. One incident involved two USAF F-15s shooting down a USAF Black Hawk Helicopter in Northern Iraq. Even though the helo was covered in large US flags and the F-15 pilots made several passes, they still thought it was a Iraqi Hind and shot it out of the sky.<BR /><BR />How can such a powerful nation be trusted when it is full of incompetant idiots.</QUOTE><BR />" How can such a powerful nation be trusted when it is full of incompetant idiots."<BR /><BR />Don't trust them. It's a C.I.A. plot to get rid of your raggedy assed equipment.<BR /><BR />

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Thursday, 29th September 2005

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• Message 6

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  This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.

• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Thursday, 29th September 2005

  Expat please!
  
  Some research please!
  The Iraqis didn't shoot down a single Tornado in Op Telic(Sorry the second Gulf War).
  
  I would suggest an alternative cause for the Patriot gunner's error was that he was a poorly trained National Guard redneck who wanted to know what the big red button on his console did.
  Never mind, he probably got a medal for accurate shooting and a posting to Abu Ghraib as a guard/pornographer out of it. I mean lets face it, they give medals away for just finishing basic!
  
  By the way, the Tornado in question was flying in a formation of 4 when the muppet responsible shot it down, so highly doubtful that his IFF was off, the other guys in the formation would have told him.
  
  Cheers,
  
  Getting bored with this now, please do some research!
  DL
  

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• Message 8

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  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Friday, 30th September 2005

  "I would suggest an alternative cause for the Patriot gunner's error was that he was a poorly trained National Guard redneck who wanted to know what the big red button on his console did."
  
  DL Please!
  Some research please!
  The national guard has no Pariot systems.
  
  
  "I would suggest an alternative cause for the Patriot gunner's error was that he was a poorly trained National Guard redneck who wanted to know what the big red button on his console did."
  
  DL Please!
  Some research please!
  A Patriot gunners decision or ability to fire are not his.
  
  "By the way, the Tornado in question was flying in a formation of 4 when the muppet responsible shot it down, so highly doubtful that his IFF was off, the other guys in the formation would have told him."
  
  I can see it now. Four R.A.F. Tornados flying in formation, challenging each other's I.D.
  
  
  

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by Trident_MKII (U1823460) on Friday, 30th September 2005

  i've got this one DL,
  
  the patriot battery in question had its automatic function turned off and was only possible to be fired manually
  
  he saw a dot on the screen and crapped his pants
  
  it ain't his fault its the training

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Friday, 30th September 2005

  <QUOTE' USER='Trident_MKII' USERID='1823460'>i've got this one DL,<BR /><BR />the patriot battery in question had its automatic function turned off and was only possible to be fired manually<BR /><BR />he saw a dot on the screen and crapped his pants<BR /><BR />it ain't his fault its the training</QUOTE><BR /><BR />Trident. There is no dot. It's all symbols. A gunner can't fire on his own. The gunners and the T.C.O. Tactical Control Officer have similar displays. In manual mode the T.C.O. gets a visual on his display. It's not a dot, its a symbol. At this point he/she only knows its an aircraft. He/she challenges with I.F.F. Identification Friend or Foe. The T.C.O. then gets a symbol to indicate hostile or friendly.<BR />If its hostile or the pilots I.F.F. has the wrong codes its goodnight sweet prince.<BR />The T.C.O. places a fire symbol over the target, at this time he assignees it to one of his gunners. The T.C.O. has complete control at all times. (in manual mode) The gunner at this time gets a fire light and at this time only is the gunners fire pushbutton activated.He lets fly. If the aircraft is not I.D. as friendly in a combat zone its all over. An aircraft can offload his ordinance at 20 Kilometers away and kill a S.A.M. site.

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Saturday, 1st October 2005

  I wouldn't say it is necessarily unique to the Americans. These things happen in war. There are instances of the RAF shooting down British planes during WW2. Favourite victim was the Blenheim bomber which looked similar to a Ju88. It is just that there are more American troops than any other army, so even if they have the same percentage number of Friendly Fire incidents, the absolute number will be greater than those of any other nation.
  
  My father was in the RAF during WW2 and saw a Blenheim being shot down by airfield defence ground fire because the pilot got the flare colours wrong when approaching the airfield. His first sight of the USAAF in North Africa was a squadron of B25's flying overhead - and dropping bombs on the RAF airfield.

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by DaveMBA (U1360771) on Sunday, 2nd October 2005

  It has a lot to do with their ops procedures - if you really want to see crass stupidity, have a look at John Simpson's report from Iraq about 2 years ago, where the US plane in full daylight with no Iraqis around managed to bomb Simpson and a group of Kurds. The US did not even have a proper investigation, let alone discipline anyone.
  
  In Yugoslavia, where they bombed that convoy of Kurds, it was froma height of 10,000ft, where they could not see, but were also beyond the range of Serb missiles.
  
  They are also gullible - the wedding party bombed in Afghanistan was the result of the different tribe nearby ringing the Yanks to say the building was an AQ hideout.
  
  

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Sunday, 2nd October 2005

  <QUOTE' USER='DaveMBA' USERID='1360771'>It has a lot to do with their ops procedures - if you really want to see crass stupidity, have a look at John Simpson's report from Iraq about 2 years ago, where the US plane in full daylight with no Iraqis around managed to bomb Simpson and a group of Kurds. The US did not even have a proper investigation, let alone discipline anyone. <BR /><BR />In Yugoslavia, where they bombed that convoy of Kurds, it was froma height of 10,000ft, where they could not see, but were also beyond the range of Serb missiles. <BR /><BR />They are also gullible - the wedding party bombed in Afghanistan was the result of the different tribe nearby ringing the Yanks to say the building was an AQ hideout. <BR /><BR /></QUOTE><BR /><BR />Hi DL, I know this is not you're post. It is however a mild example of what I was talking about.<BR /><BR />I never reply to DaveMBA's posts because he is obviously one of those people who for reasons of his own, can't help himself. They very presence of anything American threatens him.

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• Message 14

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Sunday, 2nd October 2005

  Well I'd guess this is just a phenemenon of modern war reporting now that we get daily updates of casulaties and how they were sustained. It would seem that the chances of such misunderstanding are always there in a combat situation. Mind you it is a long tradition, documented in British text books no less although personally I thought that the statement that the Americans bombed the Germans by day and the British at night was just bad grammar. However my Grandad's unit suffered its worst losses when they were bombed by a US crew who were supposed to be giving them air support so maybe it wasn't.

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• Message 15

  , in reply to message 14.

  Posted by DaveMBA (U1360771) on Sunday, 2nd October 2005

  expat has obviously gone native and is only interested in his own claims, rather than answering points to the contrary. That probably says much in itself. The stupidity of the US military involved in the incident filmed by Simpson defies belief.

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• Message 16

  , in reply to message 15.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 3rd October 2005

  Hi Expat,
  
  I'd actually forgotten about the which John Simpson's team were involved in. Not sure whether you've seen the footage over in the US but it is pretty scary.
  Just in case you haven't seen it I'll sum it up.
  Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Camera crew in a big white Landcruiser with TV written all over it driving through an area in Northern Iraq which had just been taken over by Kurds. They come across a US Special Forces team (I think they were Green Berets but as this is from memory I may be incorrect) who are acting as advisors/air support spotters in support of the Kurdish guerrillas. The Special Forces guys spot some Iraqi armour and call in an airstrike on it. A couple of minutes later two jets drop out of the sky and proceed to bomb the Kurds, the US Special Forces team and the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ's camera crew, causing casualties to each. A huge mess. They were told by the ground team to target some T-55s I think, and then went and attacked a big white car, a couple of Humvees and a group of tatty old pickups.
  
  Regardless of whether you see Dave as just attacking the US for the sake of it, I do think you should give it a look. The general perception in this country regarding, hmmm how can I word it.. US accuracy when bombing is one which has been formed by such events, and there has never been any follow up stories, such as results of investigations into the cause of such incidents, which would help to clear these things up. There are many tens of thousands of instances of the US Airforce hitting the CORRECT targets and helping our guys out of the c**p, but of course, these ones don't make the news.
  
  Cheers
  DL

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• Message 17

  , in reply to message 16.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Monday, 3rd October 2005

  Hi DL, That was a very good and fair response. My point was not the actual incidents but his presentation.
  As for the actual incident, to compute the target location the green beret must give his location and the targets. He programmed them reversed to the pilot. That can be all a fast mover has to work with. They did the same to themselves at least once in Afghanistan. Human error, it regrettably happens.

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• Message 18

  , in reply to message 17.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 3rd October 2005

  Hi Expat,
  
  Not sure if you mean Simpson's presentation of the attack or not, but on this point, his viewpoint is going to be that of a guy who had just been bombed by his own side, and lost close personal friends, so he isn't going to be singing the USAF's praises, regardless of how objective a journalist he is meant to be.
  Friendly fire losses are as old as war itself, but with modern weapons, sights and target identification, they are less understandable, and more down to personal negligence than accident.
  
  Just as an afterthought, I've never seen ground target designation being done, I assume that this would be a laser illuminator. Perhaps the Green beret had it the wrong way round???? Given the accuracy of the strike (direct hit on a hummer and one of the other vehicles), it had to be precision weapons.
  

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• Message 19

  , in reply to message 18.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Monday, 3rd October 2005

  DL, I have to rush, its 0750 here. I was referring to Dave's presentation, not the actual incident. Target illumination by laser is about phased out altogether, problems with, cloud, rain, smoke ect. its about all G.P.S. I can't tell you the exact system that was in use in the incident in question.
  Cheers.

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• Message 20

  , in reply to message 19.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 3rd October 2005

  Expat
  
  As is pretty obvious, I am no expert on aircraft or their weapons!
  
  Now ask me one on radio intercept or algorithms, different matter!
  
  Catch you later.
  
  Cheers
  

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• Message 21

  , in reply to message 20.

  Posted by DaveMBA (U1360771) on Monday, 3rd October 2005

  It wasn't anything to with that - the pilot was told to bomb a crossroads about thre emiles away - he unloaded on a colelction of vehicles on a straight piece of road. It was just like hte bombing of the Kosovo convoy - he did not bother to look. What follwoed was worse as the US authorities refused to accept any blame for what had happened nor investigate it.

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• Message 22

  , in reply to message 20.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Monday, 3rd October 2005

  <QUOTE' USER='DL ' USERID='1683040'>Expat<BR /><BR />As is pretty obvious, I am no expert on aircraft or their weapons!<BR /><BR />Now ask me one on radio intercept or algorithms, different matter!<BR /><BR />Catch you later.<BR /><BR />Cheers<BR /></QUOTE><BR /><BR />Hi DL, I hope this helps.<BR /><BR />MODERATOR this information is PUBLIC DOMAIN and does not violate any copywrites.<BR />JDAM-equipped GBU-31 2,000-pound bomb.<BR /><BR /><BR />The JDAM "tail kit" includes adjustable tail fins, a control computer, an inertial guidance system and a GPS receiver. Both the GPS receiver and the inertial guidance system allow the bomb to locate itself in space. The GPS receiver figures out its position by interpreting GPS satellite signals, while the inertial guidance system monitors the bomb's movements, tracking its path from its launch position. <BR /><BR />Before dropping the bomb, the aircraft uses its own GPS receiver to pinpoint particular targets on the ground. Just before releasing the bomb, the aircraft's computer feeds the bomb's computer its current position and the GPS coordinates of the target. <BR /><BR />In the air, the JDAM's GPS receiver processes signals from GPS satellites to keep track of its own position. As with other smart bombs, the control system adjusts the flight fins to "steer" the bomb in the right direction. According to the U.S. Air Force, the system is accurate to within 40 feet (13 meters). When everything goes exactly right, the bombs generally hit within a few feet of their targets. <BR /><BR />This system works fine even in bad weather, because the JDAM gets all its information from satellite signals, which aren't blocked by cloud cover or obstacles. The bomb doesn't have to see anything at all to find its way to the target.<BR /><BR />

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• Message 23

  , in reply to message 22.

  Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Monday, 3rd October 2005

  It would be nice if the pilots ocasionally took a look however. Mind you if it is anything like accounts of driving while on speed they are liable to become less focused on the overall surroundings and wind up concentrating on whatever is in front of them.

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• Message 24

  , in reply to message 18.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Monday, 3rd October 2005

  DL,
  
  I'm not sure but this looks like the system in question.
  
  
  MODERATOR this information is PUBLIC DOMAIN and does not violate any copywrites.
  
  
  The GLTD II provides ground forces with a compact, lightweight, man-portable laser target designator/rangefinder that is ideally suited for precise delivery of laser guided munitions.
  
  Cheers.

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• Message 25

  , in reply to message 24.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 4th October 2005

  Expat,
  
  Cheers for the reference info. I won't post any algorithm stuff, that ain't public domain information!!!!
  
  Cheers
  

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