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first world war could be averted if Bismark......?

• Message 1. 

  Posted by kashifrasheed (U2078553) on Tuesday, 27th September 2005

  Some people say that if Iron Chanceler of germany BISMARK was at the helm of affairs after 1890 or his policies were pursued by german establishment there would be no first world war.
  Plz give your valuable comments.

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by steveP (U1775134) on Tuesday, 27th September 2005

  <QUOTE' USER='kashifrasheed' USERID='2078553'>Some people say that if Iron Chanceler of germany BISMARK was at the helm of affairs after 1890 or his policies were pursued by german establishment there would be no first world war.<BR />Plz give your valuable comments.</QUOTE><BR /><BR />Kasifrasheed<BR /><BR /> I think things are complicated a bit by changes in Bismarck’s attitude during his final years. Initially he opposed obtaining overseas colonies for Germany saying there was no point to them. Then in 1884 he reversed course pretty dramatically and obtained several in quick order. Not only did this help trigger the 'scramble' for Africa and increase tension in the process but, probably more importantly, established an imperial bloc in Germany looking for expansion and a 'place in the sun'. I think this played a part in the poisoning of relations between Britain and Germany. Without that you might have seen a more stable political system and less likelihood of war.<BR /><BR /> Also by 1890 he was pretty elderly so probably didn't have much longer to influence things even if he hadn't been sacked.<BR /><BR /> If his earlier policies had been followed that might have done something to avoid war. Under Bismarck Germany was very much a sated power, looking to avoid changes in the status quo - while it developed massively internally. Under the later policies it increasingly saw itself as encircled and lacking room for expansion, causing increasing instability and by its actions generating the encirclement it feared.<BR /><BR /> Steve<BR />

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 27th September 2005

  Re: Message 2.
  
  Steve,
  
  thank you very much for this message and for all the "honest" work you do on these boards.
  
  Bismarck: "Then in 1984 he reversed course pretty dramatically and obtained several (colonies) in quick order"
  
  "reversed course pretty dramatically" Steve, that's new to me. Wasn't aware of that.
  
  And I, who thought to know that much of German history...Will check it! (malicious, no that's too strong...defying smile) BTW. Started already to look in my historybooks, but had not time this evening...(broad civilized smile)
  
  With esteem for all your well-thought messages on these boards,
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 4

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  Posted by steveP (U1775134) on Wednesday, 28th September 2005

  <QUOTE' USER='PaulRyckier' USERID='1753522'>Re: Message 2.<BR /><BR />Steve, <BR /><BR />thank you very much for this message and for all the "honest" work you do on these boards.<BR /><BR />Bismarck: "Then in 1984 he reversed course pretty dramatically and obtained several (colonies) in quick order"<BR /><BR />"reversed course pretty dramatically" Steve, that's new to me. Wasn't aware of that. <BR /><BR />And I, who thought to know that much of German history...Will check it! (malicious, no that's too strong...defying smile) BTW. Started already to look in my historybooks, but had not time this evening...(broad civilized smile)<BR /><BR />With esteem for all your well-thought messages on these boards,<BR /><BR />Warm regards,<BR /><BR />Paul.</QUOTE><BR /><BR />Paul<BR /><BR /> Working from memory but pretty certain this was the case. He was initially opposed to overseas colonies as a waste of resources and distraction from European matters. However he changed his mind and was important in the obtaining of the various German colonies in Africa. [Mainly from what I remember from reading Scramble for Africa a year or so back. Think there was some suggestion that it was partly in response to growing pressure in Germany for colonies, partly to throw a spanner in the works for European powers, especially Britain if I remember rightly. Will try and check it up if I get the chance].<BR /><BR /> Steve<BR /><BR />

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 29th September 2005

  Re: Message 4.
  
  Steve,
  
  thank you very much for your to the fact answer.
  
  German South-West Africa.
  
  In 1883 the German business-man A.E. Lüderitz acquired a land concession at Angra Pequena. In 1884 the German government declared it protectorate, which at the Berlin Conference of 1885 was extended to cover the core of what is Namibia today.
  
  
  German East Africa Tanganyika.
  
  British and Germans focussed on Eastern Africa and in 1886 partioned Continental East-Africa among themselves. German East Africa Company founded by Karl Peters with backing from Otto von Bismarck. In 1891 the German government begin to rule German East Africa directly.
  
  
  Togo.
  
  The German protectorate of Togoland was established in 1884, when the rulers of the region signed a treaty granting suzerainty to the Germans. From 1887 to 1889, Germany, Britain and France fixed the territorial limits of the protectorate.
  
  
  Cameroon.
  
  The British Queen and government have their hands full in Nigeria, East Africa and other places in the world. They are reluctant in making Cameroon a British protectorate. As a result of this hesitation the Germans "win" the territory. July 12 1884 Gustav Nachtigal signs a treaty with the chiefs of Diula on behalf of Kaiser Wilhelm. In return for trade advantages the chiefs accept a German protectorate. At the conference in Berlin in 1885 the colonial powers divide Africa between them. Baron von Soden becomes governor of the German colony:"Kamerun".
  
  As an aside my firm had some selling of agriculture equipment to Cameroon and some of my colleagues said that it was all well organised overthere. Now I read: In 1947 the confiscated German plantations (some were supporting Hitler in the interbellum) are made into the "Cameroon Development Corporation".
  
  Steve,
  
  all that to say that you seems to be right. With esteem, I read the "Scramble for Africa" from Pakkenham not that attentively as you and as an excuse (escaping smile) it is already I guess some 5 years ago...
  
  "partly in response to growing pressure in Germany for colonies" Yes, that sounds also reliable, while Bismarck always with his "Realpolitik" was a realist and, as with the Catholic Centrumparty after the "Kulturkamf", befriended again with them, while, by the competition of the British, he was obliged to change from the free market politics to the protectionist way. That was against his liberal supporters, so he remained only with the Conservatifs against the Socialists, hence his courting of the Catholics. Note: I read now to my surprise that it only from the first Vatican Concily in 1870 was that the "infailibility" of the pope became a "dogma" (dogma in the Roman-Catholic sense).
  
  I read also "Iron and Gold" from I guess "Fritz Stern" based on private letters he found on a ceiling in Berlin, essentially about the relationship with his banker the Jew Bleihröhder (spelling? all from memory). But there comes also the whole history in it including the visits to Ostend to his friend Leopold II of Belgium.
  
  Yes, 1890 the sacking of Bismarck with the famous picture from "Punch" of March 20: "the pilot goes". And yes the future foolish Wilhelm II (power at see from Mac Nahan?), was already there before 1890.
  
  With esteem and keep going on to do the good work.
  
  Paul.

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by steveP (U1775134) on Thursday, 29th September 2005

  <QUOTE' USER='PaulRyckier' USERID='1753522'>Re: Message 4.<BR /><BR />Steve,<BR /><BR />thank you very much for your to the fact answer.<BR /><BR />German South-West Africa.<BR /><BR />In 1883 the German business-man A.E. Lüderitz acquired a land concession at Angra Pequena. In 1884 the German government declared it protectorate, which at the Berlin Conference of 1885 was extended to cover the core of what is Namibia today.<BR /><BR /><BR />German East Africa Tanganyika.<BR /><BR />British and Germans focussed on Eastern Africa and in 1886 partioned Continental East-Africa among themselves. German East Africa Company founded by Karl Peters with backing from Otto von Bismarck. In 1891 the German government begin to rule German East Africa directly.<BR /><BR /><BR />Togo.<BR /><BR />The German protectorate of Togoland was established in 1884, when the rulers of the region signed a treaty granting suzerainty to the Germans. From 1887 to 1889, Germany, Britain and France fixed the territorial limits of the protectorate.<BR /><BR /><BR />Cameroon. <BR /><BR />The British Queen and government have their hands full in Nigeria, East Africa and other places in the world. They are reluctant in making Cameroon a British protectorate. As a result of this hesitation the Germans "win" the territory. July 12 1884 Gustav Nachtigal signs a treaty with the chiefs of Diula on behalf of Kaiser Wilhelm. In return for trade advantages the chiefs accept a German protectorate. At the conference in Berlin in 1885 the colonial powers divide Africa between them. Baron von Soden becomes governor of the German colony:"Kamerun". <BR /><BR />As an aside my firm had some selling of agriculture equipment to Cameroon and some of my colleagues said that it was all well organised overthere. Now I read: In 1947 the confiscated German plantations (some were supporting Hitler in the interbellum) are made into the "Cameroon Development Corporation".<BR /><BR />Steve,<BR /><BR />all that to say that you seems to be right. With esteem, I read the "Scramble for Africa" from Pakkenham not that attentively as you and as an excuse (escaping smile) it is already I guess some 5 years ago...<BR /><BR />"partly in response to growing pressure in Germany for colonies" Yes, that sounds also reliable, while Bismarck always with his "Realpolitik" was a realist and, as with the Catholic Centrumparty after the "Kulturkamf", befriended again with them, while, by the competition of the British, he was obliged to change from the free market politics to the protectionist way. That was against his liberal supporters, so he remained only with the Conservatifs against the Socialists, hence his courting of the Catholics. Note: I read now to my surprise that it only from the first Vatican Concily in 1870 was that the "infailibility" of the pope became a "dogma" (dogma in the Roman-Catholic sense).<BR /><BR />I read also "Iron and Gold" from I guess "Fritz Stern" based on private letters he found on a ceiling in Berlin, essentially about the relationship with his banker the Jew Bleihröhder (spelling? all from memory). But there comes also the whole history in it including the visits to Ostend to his friend Leopold II of Belgium.<BR /><BR />Yes, 1890 the sacking of Bismarck with the famous picture from "Punch" of March 20: "the pilot goes". And yes the future foolish Wilhelm II (power at see from Mac Nahan?), was already there before 1890.<BR /><BR />With esteem and keep going on to do the good work.<BR /><BR />Paul. </QUOTE><BR /><BR />Paul<BR /><BR /> Thanks. Sounds like my memory is better than it usually is. [Seem to forget too much nowadays.] <BR /><BR /> I remember reading before that tribal chiefs in Cameroon had asked for a European protectorate and when Britain turned them down the Germans stepped in. Don't know if they thought that there were advantages in being under European protection or had decided it was inevitable and wanted to choose who they thought would treat them best? Anyone any ideas or info on that point?<BR /><BR /> Steve<BR /><BR />PS Sounds like we’re getting a bit off topic here but interesting<BR />

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 2nd October 2005

  Re: Message 6.
  
  Steve,
  
  thank you very much for your reply and for your explanation about Cameroon.
  
  Had a look again on internet.
  
  The Europeans starts moving deeper into the country and as a result the Douala chiefs lose some of their influence. The King of Douala (Douala Magna Bell)writes to Queen Victoria, inviting England to form an official relationship with Douala, when he was told about the British post in Lagos, Nigeria.
  
  Britain thought that it would give too much trouble and the German Gustav Nachtigal was quicker. I read also that the German trade there was second to the British.
  
  "Sounds like we are getting a bit off topic here". Steve, I had my ideas for answering on the original question, but need a lot of "deep thinking" (nearly visible smile) for that and that takes time (second small smile) and then I have to check my ideas against what serious historians say about it and that takes time too. For the moment, apart from my favourites, nearly having just time to read all the messages on these boards.
  
  And on the Ancient and Archaeology there appear already people again, denying Critias.
  
  BTW. I don't read it all on this thread about the American-British fights...and the Polish? -Russian? - Ukraine? ones.
  
  Kind regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by steveP (U1775134) on Tuesday, 4th October 2005

  Paul
  
  I know what you mean. Have been busy for a couple of days on some other things and will be getting involved in an email game, which will take up an unknown period of time. So not sure how often I will be checking in here.
  
  Will be interested in what you have to say about the issue of avoiding WWI. As you say we have got rather off topic.
  
  Steve
  

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 8th October 2005

  Re: message 8.
  
  Steve,
  
  you are right about the lack of time.
  
  One day I will give an in-depth theory of avoiding WWI. But still not answered to Brigantes and the Greek Nikolaos...
  
  Kind regards,
  
  Paul.

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