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Loyalist Violence

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  Belfast is being torn apart by Loyalist violence, and yet I read in the Times yesterday that it has been caused by 'pandering to nationalist sentiment'. Does anyone have a view?

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Stepney Boy (U1760040) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  As some one who does not live in Ulster I can not express a view based on experience. What I will say though is that the government (Labour) does appear to favour the republicans in giving concessions and so perhaps not maintaining a balance between all interested parties.
  One does get the impression though that the government wants to get out of Ulster but to do it without losing 'face'.
  Sadley a most distressful country
  Slainte
  Spike

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  Yes,I agree that the British Govt made a great number of concessions to Republicans, but why have Loyalist paramilitaries not been asked to decomission their arms? There are plenty of splinter Loyalist groups who have no intention of laying down their weapons. And if they are loyal to the crown, why attack British soldiers and the PSNI? I dont mean to sound biased, just a little confused.
  
  Smeg

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by gooserss (U1983611) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  there is a general perception in some loyalist circles that they are getting less than their republican counterpoints. The main areas rioting - shankill, the village, sandy row, parts of east belfast are areas of high deprevation, unemployement, poor education etc.
  There are of course similar areas in on the catholic side. However this, taken with the re-routing of marches, fear of ' catholic expansion ' into areas hitherto seen as protestant, changes in the police service, disbandment of some regiments of the army, release of republican prisoners, rise in support of sinn fein, funding for gaelic language etcetc.
  
  all these have made unionists uneasy. However the recent violence was orchestrated by the uvf/uda, who were angry at the police attempting to arrest members who were involved in the loyalist fued. Add orange order anger at the reroute and there u have it.
  
  Most of those involved were paramilitaries/gangsters who only have loyalty to their drug empire. As well as lots of youths- spides/chavs who hate the police anyway. The oo was involved in the early parts of the rioting, which in itself is a disgrace as it sets itself up as a law abiding org.
  
  There is a general feeling in certain areas that violence is a way of getting noticed. The govt seems to give in to whoever creates the biggest stink.
  all this mixed in with a good dollop of stupidity and agression caused the riots.

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Dirk Marinus (U1648073) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  
  
  They do attack society i.e attacking police and army ,setting private property alight ( motorcars ,buses and houses.
  
  Could we therefore actually go as far and call these rioters terrorists?
  
  
  

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Stepney Boy (U1760040) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  'Be Kind To Belfast'
  a poem by Maurice James Craig.
  
  'We know when all is said,
  We perish if we yeild'
  From ULSTER by Rudland Kipling.
  
  Whilst these two poems are from just once side of the divide(no biase intended) it shows why in Ulster to take hold of their future they must be prepared to let go of their past which sad to say I do not think they will.
  
  From the other side of the divide
  
  After the Battle of Bogside, the IRA Provos came under command of Martin McGuinness and yet look where he is now.
  
  Which shows how far a british government is prepared to go or what to give up to clinch an agreement.
  
  I remember John Major the then prime minister stating in the house of commons 'That no british government will deal with terrorists (IRA)untill they have surrenderd and given up all of their weapons' but even with the 'Good Friday Agreement' what have they (the terrorists) given up that reduces their effectiveness as terrorists?
  
  So what we appear to have now is a mixture of religion, politics and criminals and whilst the various groups are getting something out of an agreement or another with the government they behave themselves but when they feel that they are losing out they flex their 'muscles' and so their past is played over again and again.
  
  A way must be found to break this sad circle.
  Slainte
  Spike
  
  
  
  Yes,I agree that the British Govt made a great number of concessions to Republicans, but why have Loyalist paramilitaries not been asked to decomission their arms? There are plenty of splinter Loyalist groups who have no intention of laying down their weapons. And if they are loyal to the crown, why attack British soldiers and the PSNI? I dont mean to sound biased, just a little confused.
  
  ³§³Ύ±π²µΜύ

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by SDG (U2050287) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  Sorry dont read the times but the truth of the matter is simple. well not so simple as to sum it up in a short message as this but us in the north have a tendency to pass the buck so to speak or "play the blame game" this would surly filter through to not so local media who dont understand the region as well as someone who lived his whole life here.
  
  You are missing the real issue why does an organisation such as the Orange Order which depicts itself as a christian movement (who have the right north or south of the border to be loyal to whatever monarchy, government or organisation they wish so long as they live by the rules of the country in which they reside. Such is the beauty of our liberal political Systems)
  
  Why then do these "Chritians" feel the need to march through an area where a percentage of the local population dont want them to march throungh the area as they feel it is an infringement of there human rights to have to listen to "L" pipe bands which accompany the Orange Order playing music which they find Offensive and very disrespectful to there religion and nationality.
  Not to mention the Fact that the Orange order is an Organistion associated with King William the 3RD who during his reign gave consent to the Penal Laws (laws which banned the catholic relion from being practiced in Ireland. Forbade Catholics from Being taught in ireland and took away many of the civil liberties at the time for those that may have practiced Catholicism.)
  
  Finally it was these same "Christians" who blocked funding for St. Patricks Day celebrations in the west of Belfast as it may cause tensions and disruption. But at the same time allocated local funds (from Council Tax and British Taxpayers money) to the policing of orange order parades
  
  What do these Christians who play at democracy and religion know of either the Bible or the UN charter of Human Rights. I have an opinion But i Know if i voice it on this site it would offend.
  
  as for your original comment I am amazed that a newspaper held in such regard for being unbiased and giving a balanced account of the story would make a statement which places the parades Commission in a light which would make it seem Biased.

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by SDG (U2050287) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  Not to sound arrogant But did Britsh POWs return home after world wars 1 & 2. Loyalsit prisoners were also released or did that slip notice your as well. as for the rise of Sinn FΓ©in well politics is a funny auld game just ask the Tories. lol. And the irish language is now recognised by the EU so the British Govt. must fund it.

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• Message 9

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  Posted by gooserss (U1983611) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  Shane
  loyalist prisoners were of course released and have skulked back to the drug dealing mafia types most were. the general feeling in unionist circles is that they should have stayed in jail.
  these people have little support in general, apart from some hardline areas. Not one of these people has been voted in by public - demise of pup etc.
  the same cannot be said of republican prisoners. The popularity of sinn fein, who many of these ex prisoners work for, or represent is the key problem to most unionists.
  While its easy to see that some members of sinn fein were in prison for what could be argued as civil offences, or resistance, that by no means describes all of them. Some high members of sinn fein are seen to have blood on their hands - sean kelly, martin magunness etc.
  The fact that sinn fein are so popular at the minute seems to unionists to be tacit support for the armed struggle, and a hint that it could happen again.
  The unionist parties are by no means blameless either, but on the whole very few murderers are elected by them.
  The irish language is a sore point as well, although one that is slowly being accepted by unionists.
  The question remains is the war over ?
  Can loyalist and republican prisoners be equated to the pows of ww1, ww2 ?
  Personally I would of preferred if most of them had stayed in jail until all arms of both sides are handed over. I would also send back to jail all members of the uvf to finish their sentences if they are not on ceasefire.
  cheers.

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Thursday, 15th September 2005

  "Why then do these "Chritians" feel the need to march through an area where a percentage of the local population dont want them to march throungh the area as they feel it is an infringement of there human rights to have to listen to "L" pipe bands which accompany the Orange Order playing music which they find Offensive and very disrespectful to there religion and nationality."
  
  
  Good point.
  

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by gooserss (U1983611) on Thursday, 15th September 2005

  Of course in any sane society the oo would not be allowed to walk through these areas.
  However the oo have been marching in ni for yrs. In there eyes it is an integral part of their religion, a religious festival so to speak. The same as catholic festivals in spain, france etcetc.
  Most of the contentious areas have been a route for the oo for yrs. They do not accept that because the religious make up of the area has changed that this should mean that they cant walk there. ( this should also be added to the fact that some members, not all, love to be triumphalist and rub some noses. )
  The oo also think, with some reason, that sinn feinn have been sparking discension for badness. Not all contentious parades pass through largely catholic areas. Some pass through mixed areas, where some locals like the parades and others dont. There is also the issue every yr of one parade passing close to ardoyne, mainly because it is the only route from a prod area into town.
  There has been trouble every yr at this flash point, which winds the oo as they see the route, rightly, as the only way into belfast.
  Without a doubt some pipe bands are loyalist and play songs that offend. That is a result of 30 yrs of violence and to start to ban songs ( including many irish music songs ) would be impossible.
  Many protestants see the marches as part of their heritage. They remember catholics enjoying the parades before the troubles. indeed, in some areas people from a mixed background still watch them.
  The whole parades issue has become a bad area recently. In no way shuld these parades pass through catholic areas. However, it is a sign of catholic bitterness that many want all the parades banned, and a sign of prod bitterness that people demand the parades pass through unwelcome areas and the playing of offensive songs. The whole issue shanes evryone in NI and there needs to be understanding on both sides for it to be settled.
  
  
  
  

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Stepney Boy (U1760040) on Saturday, 17th September 2005

  Hi,
  There is some interesting reading on page 38 and 39 in todays Mail which does give some credance to what people have been saying.
  Slainte
  Spike

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by cloch1 (U1809797) on Saturday, 17th September 2005

  The Daily Mail!!!!
  
  It must be true then.
  
  Im just waiting for this discussion to throw up that old chestnut of
  "before the troubles Catholics used to iron the sashes of their Protestant neighbours"
  
  What a load of old rubbish.
  
  Apart from the obvious problem of Orangemen having Catholic neighbours,not heard of many Catholics living in the Shankhill road,or Protestants living in the Derry Bogside.
  
  It asks us to beleive that Orangemen either didnt own irons(perhaps they are all made in Rome)
  
  Or their Catholic "neighbours" for strange reason somehow not only approved of a virulently anti-catholic organisation but participated in its marches!
  
  Oh how joyous and proud they must have felt when the march stopped outside their church banging their drums and proclaiming their supremecy over the Catholics.
  
  At least they could say " I ironed their Sash"
  
  Next week we will be bringing you the stories of Brixtons Black community Ironing the Brownshirts of the BNP.

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• Message 14

  , in reply to message 13.

  Posted by gooserss (U1983611) on Monday, 19th September 2005

  hi
  In the main u make a good point about most of the marches. But there is little doubt that before the troublers catholics regulary came out to watch the parades in some areas. Particularly in some country areas.
  This said, i doubt anyone would believe that they ever ironed sashes.
  The parade on the lisburn rd is attended by mixed groups. I have a mixed bunch of friends and we all go to watch it every yr. I have gone to some bonfires as well with catholic friends. These bonfires have not been attended by loyalist paramilitaries, and attracted many people from over the world.
  In retirn i have been taken to clubs under an assumed name, where ira songs are played, money collected etc.
  You cant make generalisations of all marches, fires, one side and the other.

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• Message 15

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by Luis99 (U1688250) on Thursday, 22nd September 2005

  'Some high members of sinn fein are seen to have blood on their hands - sean kelly, martin magunness etc'
  
  Sean Kelly is not a high ranking member of SF. McGuinness had a right to resist the depredations of the unionist hegemony who were oppressing his people.
  
  The part he played in defending his area was akin to that played by the RAF defending the UK in 1940 IMO. That is why people respect him and why they vote for SF.
  

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• Message 16

  , in reply to message 15.

  Posted by gooserss (U1983611) on Tuesday, 27th September 2005

  if sean kelly is of no importance to sinn fein then why did they make such a row abot his rearrest. This also included bringing paople out to riot. ( much the same way the oo did over the march ).
  
  To liken m maguiness to raf pilots in the battle of britain is so laughable that it needs no more comment.
  
  The point remains that very few elected unionist leaders have been directly involved in violance - unlike many members of sinn fein. Without a doubt some saw themselves as defenders of their areas, but this does not excuse them for what they did.

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