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What a name BROWN
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Message 1.Β
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Monday, 21st November 2011
My first record I can find for Robert Brown 1880 Penybont Wales is the 1911 census living in Thirsk Yorkshire as a butcher. I have all following records but cannot get any further back.
His sister is Elizabeth Louisa 1878 married to Frederick Stephenson which he list as his next of kin on his army papers. Again I have her in the 1911 census also living in Thirsk Yorkshire with her husband again cannot get any further back
I have found a half sister and records for Violet Mary Olga Leith 1901 & 1911 census on birth cert. mother listed as Annie Morgan living with Alexander John Leith 19 years younger 1877
Annie Morgan 1858 Natmel Radnorshire Wales
Marries Thomas Watkins 1883 Radnorshire
1901 working in hotel in Cardif
It is rumoured in the family that Robert Brown changed his name -
Message 2
Posted by clematised (U3233879) on Monday, 21st November 2011
Hello mazilink,
Welcome to the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ your messages will be moderated and not appear right away.
Brown is a difficult enough name to research without the added possibility that he may have had a name change too.
Have you followed their Mother through the census
I am sure someone will check it out for you soon as I dont have the subs to the sites just the free ones.
Edna -
Message 3
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Monday, 21st November 2011
Hi Edna
Thank you for your feedback
The trouble is there are 2 Annie Morgan's from the same area and I have no way of knowing which is which -
Message 4
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Monday, 21st November 2011
Hi Edna
Thank you for your feedback
The problem is there are 2 Annie Morgans in the same area, about the same age. -
Message 5
Posted by clematised (U3233879) on Monday, 21st November 2011
Thats ok someone will take a look for you
We are all private individuals on our own computers at home doing this as a hobby so it may be tomorrow when someone replys so look back, dont worry if you post a message and cant see it as it will turn up eventually.
Edna -
Message 6
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
Thank you Edna
Yes I realised that there is a time delay after I had already posted the same message twice.
I appriciate your help & welcome -
Message 7
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
I did have a look in 1881 for when they were nippers (presume they would still be under Brown at that point?) but couldn't find either of them or any born Penybont - where is that exactly?
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Message 8
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
Just to clarify do you know the parents of Robert and Elizabeth Louisa or have any birth/marriage certificates giving parent(s) names?
Is the half sister Violet a half sister who you think is through the same mother ie Annie Morgan?
So Annie had the two Brown children before she married Mr Watkins? -
Message 9
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
I can see Annie in 1881 at 66 St Marys Street Royal Hotel Census Place Cardiff St Mary, Glamorgan, Wales
Annie MORGAN Servant U Female 22 Nantmel, Radnorshire, Wales Housemaid -
Message 10
Posted by clematised (U3233879) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1883 (>99%)
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Morgan Annie Knighton 11b 291
WATKINS Thomas Knighton 11b 291
the marriage
Edna -
Message 11
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
Hi Tourmie
Firstly Thank you
The only record I have is the birth cert of Violet, showing her as "Leith" formally "Morgan".
In the 1901 census it shows her living with Leith, I say" living with" as I cannot find any marriage record, but she does have 2 Watkins children living there also.
So I must assume she is the mother of the 2 Brown's. Later, 1911 census, we find Violet living with her sister Elizabeth in Thirsk Yorkshire.
Yes, either that or they were taken on by a relative or were adopted ????
Thanks Again -
Message 12
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
Hi again Edna
Yes thank you, I should have said I do have that record
Thank You -
Message 13
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
Hi Tourmie
Yes that's the problem, I have been tearing my hair out trying to find a way round this mystery.Penybont is in Radnorshire Wales
Thank you -
Message 14
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
Yes thats her, but when you go back to the next cesus there are at least 2 Annie Morgans in her area, I tend to favour the one whose mother is Elizabeth, what do you think?
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Message 15
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
Hi, still working on this one! I think it would help if you could post the census info you do have with the link between Robert/Elizabeth and possible half sister so we can see them all together as it were.
I haven't found any census with these two on as yet.
Have to wonder where they were as little ones
and how they ended up in Yorkshire.
I have found Annie in 1891 with Mr Watkins and in 1901 with Mr Leith tho not a marriage to Mr Leith.
Do you know what surname Elizabeth married under and when? I can't find that marriage to a Mr Stephenson.
I take it the Brown surname came later for some reason and we are working on the assumption they were born under the name Morgan to Annie. -
Message 16
Posted by silvery (U8422462) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
Looking in freebmd for a birth of Elizabeth Louisa in Radnorshire 1875 to 1880 there is only one in Hay 1878. Think the surname is Powell.
freebmd is playing up so I can't post it at the moment.
then there is this
Births Dec 1899
Leith Violet Mary O - district Leek vol 6b page 321
1901 England Census
Name: Violet M O Leith
Age: 1 5 Months
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Alexander Jno Leith
Mother's Name: Annie Leith
Gender: Female
Where born: Leek, Staffordshire, England
Civil parish: Leek
Ecclesiastical parish: St Edward
Town: Leek
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Leek
Sub-registration district: Leek
Piece: 2622
Folio: 78
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
Alexander Jno Leith m 27 plasterer b Scotland
Annie Leith m 39 b Nantmel Radnor
Ethel Jane Watkins dau 17 do
Olive Annie Watkins dau 12 do
Violet M O Leith dau 15 Months b Leek Staffo
Wm Fisher lodger 42 b Leek Staffs
Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 2622; Folio: 78; Page: 7.
In the 1911 is does look as though Mary Violet Olga Leith is with Elizabeth Louisa Stephenson b Penybone Radnorshir and Frederick Stephenson b Parkgate Yorkshire but if someone could post the transcription, and the relationships .................
It looks as though you've linked them together with Robert Brown (what did he change his name from/to ? ) mentioning Frederick Stephenson in army papers and Violet Mary being with Elizabeth and Frederick in the 1911.
But have you got them anywhere else?
Who is working in hotel in Cardiff 1901? -
Message 17
Posted by silvery (U8422462) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
Some more - from the 1911.
Surname Forename Born in Place of birth Location in 1911
Brown Robert b 1883 Radnorshire Penybout Thirsk
Surname Forename Born in Place of birth Location in 1911
Stephenson Elizabeth Louisa 1878 Radnorshire Polnybout Thirsk
I can't look at the 1911 though to check addresses, relationships etc -
Message 18
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
Oh good am glad someone else is on the case as I am really struggling!
I doubt this is the birth of Elizabeth and I can't find a corresponding birth for Robert but it is the right area.
Births Jun 1878 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MORGAN Elizabeth Rhayader 11b 171
It was Annie working in the hotel but in 1881 I think as we have her in 1901 with Alexander Leith.
In 1891 she is with husband Thomas Watkins and the two Watkins children Ethel and Olive.
Different date of birth for Robert there 1883. Need more info. -
Message 19
Posted by Pheno (U14601115) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
This is the actual 1911 entry
Person: LEITH, Mary Violet Olga
Address: Market Place Thirsk
STEPHENSON, Frederick Head Married
2 years M 49 1862 Manager Brickworks Yorks Parkgate
STEPHENSON, Elizabeth Louisa Wife Married F 33 1878 Radnorshire Polnybout
LEITH, Mary Violet Olga Sister In Law F 11 1900 School Staffordshire Leek
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
29041 Reference:
RG14PN29041 RG78PN1678 RD530 SD2 ED2 SN275
Registration District: Thirsk Sub District: Thirsk
Enumeration District: 2 Parish: Thirsk
Relationship is sister in law but as we know that can mean almost anything.
There doesn't appear to be a relevant Frederick Stephenson/Elizabeth marriage between 1905 and 1912.
Pheno -
Message 20
Posted by Pheno (U14601115) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
Sorry I should have looked at the original 1911 entry as well.
On that it states that no children have been born of this marriage between Frederick and Elizabeth and the relationship on the original of Mary Violet to Frederick is 'wife's sister' rather than sister in law as on transcript.
Pheno -
Message 21
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
WOW I can't believe how kind and helpful you all are
THANK YOU
Records I have so far
Annie Morgan
marriage record to Watkins
Census
1881 Cardiff
1891 Radnorshire with Watkins
1901 Leek with Leith
Elizabeth
1911 census with husband Frederick & sister Violet
Robert
1911 census Thirsk as butcher
Marriage Cert saying his father was Robert Brown butcher but I don't think so
Army Papers living in Middlesbrogh b Natmel dairyman next of kin Mrs E
Stephenson living in Harrogate.
Death Cert
Violet
you have
She does go on to marry Robert Hammond
Marriage Cert which is where I got the name of Morgan from
I hope this answers all you questions, this is all I have.
Thank you all again -
Message 22
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
Should also have pointed out that Elizabeth & Frederick were in thier 30's & 40's respectively so chances are Elizabeth was married before. I know Frederick was.
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Message 23
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
Sorry Violet's Birth Cert is where I got the name Morgan from
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Message 24
Posted by Mabel Bagshawe (U2222589) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
If she was MOrgan or Morgans (Annie seems to use both) this could be ELizabeth in 1891
Name: Elizabeth Morgans
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Heyop, Radnorshire, Wales
Civil parish: Cefnllys
Ecclesiastical parish: Cefnllys
Town: Cwm Y Brith
County/Island: Radnorshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Rhayader
Sub-registration district: Nantmel
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4585
Folio: 5
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
Isaiah Lloyd 50
Mary Ann Lloyd 36
John M Lloyd 16
William Lloyd 13
Elizabeth Lloyd 11
Isaiah Lloyd 7
Edward Lloyd 5
Hannah Lloyd 2
Elizabeth Morgans 14
James Hughes 25 -
Message 25
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
This fits date wise with the being married 2 years on the 1911 and if there is a possibility she had been married before she could have been a Gale
but is very tentative as I can't tie in a Gale marriage to an Elizabeth that would fit her.
Marriages Dec 1908 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GALE Elizabeth Sculcoates 9d 304
SMITH Harriet Sculcoates 9d 304
STEPHENSON Frederick Sculcoates 9d 304
THOMAS Richard Sculcoates 9d 304 -
Message 26
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
One more question, what age is Robert down as when he marries please and what year did he marry? There seems a slight discrepency between 1880 birth and 1883. This would have a bearing on the 1881 census.
Also, and this may be way too fanciful, but I wonder if he had a different Christian name as well. -
Message 27
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
There's this little one in 1881 possible for Elizabeth tho she should have been a little older. 1 year old "boarder" with Cadman family seems a bit odd.
John CADMAN Head M Male 61 Radnorshire, Wales Farmer Of 6 1/2 Acres 1 Lab
Sarah CADMAN Wife M Female 58 Radnorshire, Wales
Sarah CADMAN Daur U Female 24 Radnorshire, Wales Dairy Maid
Elizabeth MORGANS Boarder Female 1 Radnorshire, Wales
Dwelling Rock House
Census Place Llandewy Ystradenny, Radnor, Wales -
Message 28
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
Hi Mabel Thank You
Yes I saw that and it is a possibility, I will bear that one in mind
Thanks again -
Message 29
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
Hi Tourmie
Yes I did think that was a possibility, but I could not find a Morgan Marrying a Gale so I left that one on hold
Thanks again -
Message 30
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
Hi again
He marries Jane Stapleton Wright in 1917 Thirsk age 37, this was a year or so after he had enlisted for WW1.
On his amy papers he states he is 35years and 6months which is rather precise lol, which would make his birth Apr 1880.
As you know the census dates are very unreliable, it seems, epecially the women, the older they get the younger they get ha ha.
I think anything is possible with this part of the family, they all seem to come and go at will.
Thank you -
Message 31
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
Hi Tourmie
Yes I did look at that one, but can't tie the name in anywhere as yet, another one to work on.
I have been looking at these 2 for ages now but just can@t make a link anywhere
Thanks again -
Message 32
Posted by mazilink (U15040701) on Friday, 25th November 2011
Thank you all for your hard work
I'm going back over all your findings again
to see if I can make it fit.
Thanks again
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