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Marriage help
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by MrGrinch-Champion of the Middle Saxons (U1934518) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
Hi all,
Im trying to find the marriage for Robert Morgan. He was born 1838 in Sunbury, and married an Elizabeth. I think their first child was born c1860. Elizabeth was from Exeter.
thanks
G -
Message 2
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
If you have the birth details of their first child where did that take place as there are many Robert Morgan marriages.
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Message 3
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
1861 census: This is the only Robert Morgan born 1838 in Sunbury that I could find, obviously he is unmarried.
MORGAN, Mary Head Widow F 57 1804 Laundress
Ipswich
Suffolk
SHADWELL, Sarah Daughter Married F 27 1834 Laundress
Sunbury
Middlesex
MORGAN, Joane Son M 25 1836 Labourer
Sunbury
Middlesex
MORGAN, Robert Son Unmarried M 23 1838 Labourer
Sunbury
Middlesex
MORGAN, George Son Unmarried M 15 1846 Labourer
Sunbury
Middlesex
MORGAN, Ellen Daughter F 10 1851
Sunbury
Middlesex
MORGAN, James Son M 4 1857 Scholar
Sunbury
Middlesex
SHACKLOCK, Jane Granddaughter F 2 1859
Sunbury
Middlesex
CONSTABLE, William Lodger Unmarried M 54 1807 Labourer
N K
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Piece:
763 Folio:
24 Page:
3 Registration District:
Staines
Civil Parish:
Sunbury Municipal Borough:
Address:
Green Street, Sunbury County:
Middlesex -
Message 4
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
1871 census I think this is the family you are looking for Robert is now married to Elizabeth:-
MORGAN, Robert Head M 31 1840 Middlesex
MORGAN, Elizabeth Wife F 26 1845 Devon
MORGAN, Robert Son M 8 1863 Middlesex
MORGAN, Emily Daughter F 6 1865 Middlesex
MORGAN, Sarah Daughter F 3 1868 Middlesex
MORGAN, William Son M 0 1871 Middlesex
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Piece:
1304 Folio:
74 Page:
59 Registration District:
Staines
Civil Parish:
Sunbury Municipal Borough:
Address:
Layton's Lane, Sunbury County:
Middlesex -
Message 5
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
There is a marriage in 1861 Staines (Sunbury comes under Staines) but unfortunately there is a bride missing
Name: MORGAN, Robert
Registration District: Staines
County: Middlesex
Year of Registration: 1861
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume No: 3A
Page No: 22 -
Message 6
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
1881 census:-
MORGAN, Robert Head Married M 45 1836 Labourer
Sunbury
Middlesex
MORGAN, Elizabeth Wife Married F 38 1843
Exeter
Devon
MORGAN, Robert Son Single M 19 1862
Sunbury
Middlesex
MORGAN, Sarah Daughter Single F 14 1867 Scholar
Sunbury
Middlesex
MORGAN, William Son Single M 10 1871 Scholar
Sunbury
Middlesex
MORGAN, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 7 1874 Scholar
Sunbury
Middlesex
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Piece:
1327 Folio:
45 Page:
49 Registration District:
Staines
Civil Parish:
Sunbury Municipal Borough:
Address:
Laytons Lane, Sunbury County: -
Message 7
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
1891 census:-
Elizabeth is now a widow and born Bristol (previously Exeter, Devon) but living with her 2 sons at same address as 1881 census:-
MORGAN, Elizabeth Head Widow F 49 1842 Char Woman
Bristol
Gloucestershire
MORGAN, Robert Son Single M 28 1863 Waterman
Sunbury
Middlesex
MORGAN, William Son Single M 21 1870 Labourer General
Sunbury
Middlesex
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Piece:
1015 Folio:
49 Page:
34 Registration District:
Staines
Civil Parish:
Sunbury Municipal Borough:
Address:
Rope Walk, Sunbury County:
Middlesex -
Message 8
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
I couldn't find Elizabeth on the 1901 census but did find the son William living at Rope Walk (same address as 1891 census) perhaps Elizsbeth has died:-
92 MORGAN, Willm Head Married M 31 1870 Ballast Dredger
Sunbury
Middlesex
92 MORGAN, Frances Wife Married F 25 1876
Southwark
London
92 MORGAN, Alice Daughter F 5 1896
Sunbury
Middlesex
92 MORGAN, Willm Son M 3 1898
Sunbury
Middlesex
92 MORGAN, Frances Daughter F 1 1900
Sunbury
Middlesex
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RG number:
RG13 Piece:
1173 Folio:
29 Page:
14
Sub District:
Sunbury Enumeration District:
15 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Mary's
Municipal Borough:
Address:
Rope Walk, Sunbury, Town County:
Middlesex -
Message 9
Posted by MrGrinch-Champion of the Middle Saxons (U1934518) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
Thats them brill.
So the Robert Marriage with the bride missing must be my man. Is there any other way of finding out who the bride was apart from going to Kew and looking at the originals ?
Regards
G -
Message 10
Posted by MrGrinch-Champion of the Middle Saxons (U1934518) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
Another slight problem.
I have William b1871 as marrying an Ellen Rebecca Catten in 1896 not this Frances.
Im confused as he's my direct ancestor.
G -
Message 11
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
The 1901 census I found was searched on the address from 1891 and I found William same birth as that on 1891 so perhaps its just a coincidence.
I will look for the marriages for you.
You don't need to go to Kew to research the marriages, certificates are available from the GRO for the 1861 marriage of Robert to ? -
Message 12
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
1911 for William Morgan:-
RAISWELL, Charles Head Married M 37 1874 Farm Labourer Rushbury Salop
RAISWELL, Frances Carline Wife Married
15 years F 45 1866 Stanton Lacy Salop
RAISWELL, William Henry Son M 11 1900 School Munslow Salop
RAISWELL, Harry Son M 7 1904 Munslow Salop
WILLIAMS, Glething Rhoda Daughter Single F 19 1892 General Servant Domestic Munslow Salop
LEWIS, George Boarder Single M 34 1877 Carter To Builder Munslow Salop
MORGAN, William Boarder Married M 40 1871 Bricklayers Labourer Sumbury in Themese Middlesex
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
15888 Reference:
RG14PN15888 RG78PN974 RD342 SD4 ED5 SN19
Registration District:
Ludlow Sub District:
Munslow Enumeration District:
5 Parish:
Munslow
Address:
The Drive Munslow Craven Arms Shropshire County:
Shropshire -
Message 13
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
I found this marriage on freebmd:-
Marriages Dec 1894 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clark Frances Elizabeth Staines 3a 38
Morgan William Edward Staines 3a 38
Paterson Alexander Staines 3a 38
Winchester Emma Staines 3a 38 -
Message 14
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
Is the person you are researching a William Edward Morgan? This one states born Latons Lane Sunbury (Believe this to be Laytons Lane, Sunbury see earlier census when unmarried and living with parents)
Obviously listed twice on 1911:-
MORGAN, William Edward Head M
16 years M 41 1870 Labourer General Latons Lane Sunbury
MORGAN, Frances Elizabeth Wife F 35 1876 Newcommon St Boro London
MORGAN, Alice Elizabeth Daughter Single F 15 1896 White Hove Cottages Sunbury
MORGAN, William E R Son M 13 1898 Rope Walk Cottage Sunbury
MORGAN, Frances Louisa Daughter F 11 1900 Rope Walk Cottage Sunbury
MORGAN, Constance Sarah Daughter F 8 1903 Rope Walk Cottage Sunbury
MORGAN, Robert Stanley Son M 5 1906 Rope Walk Cottage Sunbury
MORGAN, Thomas Edward Son M 2 1909 Rope Walk Cottage Sunbury
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
6740 Reference:
RG14PN6740 RG78PN335 RD126 SD1 ED16 SN201
Registration District:
Staines Sub District:
Sunbury Enumeration District:
16 Parish:
Sunbury
Address:
Cemetery Lane Sunbury on Thames County:
Middlesex -
Message 15
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
Elizabeth Taylor my be his bride
Name: MORGAN, Robert
Registration District: Help Staines
County: Middlesex
Year of Registration: 1861
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume No: Help 3A
Page No: Help 24B
MarriageFinderβ„Ά: Robert Morgan married one of the following people Help CLARK, Eliza view record
CLARLE, Eliza view record
TAYLOR, Elizabeth view record >>>>>
GOODERHAM, George view record -
Message 16
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
I couldn't find any marriage in any appropriate year between William Morgan and Ellen Rebecca Catten obviously if you have the marriage certificate it must have taken place but I'm afraid I couldn't find it.
The census address evidence and Williams place of birth details and the marriage I found lead me to believe I have researched the correct William. -
Message 17
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
This is probably her , Uxbridge isn't that far from Sunbury
Deaths Mar 1900 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morgan Elizabeth 65 Uxbridge 3a 38 -
Message 18
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
Free BMD has Ellens surname as CATLEEN
Marriages Jun 1896 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Catleen Ellen Staines 3a 35>>>>>
JORDAN Elizabeth Susan Staines 3a 35
Morgan William Staines 3a 35>>>>>>>>>
Shepherd James Aitkin Staines 3a 35 -
Message 19
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
It seems that there's 2 Williams born Sunbury between 1870 and 1872 Here's the other one in 1901
MORGAN, William Head Married M 29 1872 Bricklayers Labourer
Deaf Sunbury
Middlesex VIEW
MORGAN, Ellen Wife Married F 28 1873
Richmond
Surrey VIEW
CATTEN, Willy Son Single M 5 1896
Richmond
Surrey VIEW
MORGAN, Mary Daughter Single F 4 1897
Halliford
Middlesex VIEW
MORGAN, Nellie Daughter Single F 1 1900
Richmond
Surrey VIEW
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Piece:
1173 Folio:
41 Page:
4 Registration District:
Staines
Civil Parish:
Sunbury Municipal Borough:
Address:
Halliford Square, Sunbury, Town County:
Middlesex -
Message 20
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
1871 census having WIlliam living at Laytons Lane with his parents later census when he is married to Frances has his place of birth as Latons Lane, Sunbury
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Message 21
Posted by MrGrinch-Champion of the Middle Saxons (U1934518) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
It seems that there's 2 Williams born Sunbury between 1870 and 1872 Here's the other one in 1901
MORGAN, William Head Married M 29 1872 Bricklayers Labourer
Deaf Sunbury
Middlesex VIEW
MORGAN, Ellen Wife Married F 28 1873
Richmond
Surrey VIEW
CATTEN, Willy Son Single M 5 1896
Richmond
Surrey VIEW
MORGAN, Mary Daughter Single F 4 1897
Halliford
Middlesex VIEW
MORGAN, Nellie Daughter Single F 1 1900
Richmond
Surrey VIEW
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Piece:
1173 Folio:
41 Page:
4 Registration District:
Staines
Civil Parish:
Sunbury Municipal Borough:
Address:
Halliford Square, Sunbury, Town County:
Middlesex
Μύ Yes this is my William.
Can we bring up the two Williams on the 1891 to see if i have the right parents ?
He cant be in different places at the same time can he ? Saying that, ive had stranger things.
G -
Message 22
Posted by MrGrinch-Champion of the Middle Saxons (U1934518) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
Looking at the 1881 census, there are two born in Sunbury. I may of made a mistake and assumed Robert was William's father but there is what i think is my William now living with his grandmother aged 8.
It is the same family as i have Mary as William's grandmother but he must be the son of not Robert but a brother of his.
Any ideas guys ? -
Message 23
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
1891 William Sidney and Arthur are down as Grandsons , George is son and Ellen daughter both say they are single , Elizabeth is a widow
Name: William Morgan
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Grandson
Mother's Name: Ellen Morgan
Gender: Male
Where born: Sunbury, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Sunbury
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Sunbury
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status: View image
Registration district: Staines
Sub-registration district: Sunbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1015
Folio: 39
Page Number: 13
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Morgan 82
George Morgan 46
Ellen Morgan 39
William Morgan 18
Arthur G Morgan 16
Sidney E Morgan 10
View
Original
Record
View Original Image
View blank form
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 1015; Folio 39; Page 13; GSU roll: 6096125. -
Message 24
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
Sorry meant to say Mary is a widow
The other William Morgan on 1891 ( with Elizabeth ) is on message 7 of this thread -
Message 25
Posted by MrGrinch-Champion of the Middle Saxons (U1934518) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
Thanks for that.
Here are the children of Robert Snr. My William's grandfather and Elizabeth's husband.
Ann b1831
William b1833
Sarah b1834
Jacob b1836
Robert b1838 (Cant be my Williams father)
Emma b1840
Mary b1844
George b1847 (on the census but shown as unmarried so cant be him)
Ellen b1851 (on the census)
James b1857
Now who is the father ? :o( -
Message 26
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
1891 William Sidney and Arthur are down as Grandsons , George is son and Ellen daughter both say they are single , Elizabeth is a widow
Name: William Morgan
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Grandson
Mother's Name: Ellen Morgan
Gender: Male
Where born: Sunbury, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Sunbury
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Sunbury
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status: View image
Registration district: Staines
Sub-registration district: Sunbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1015
Folio: 39
Page Number: 13
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Morgan 82
George Morgan 46
Ellen Morgan 39
William Morgan 18
Arthur G Morgan 16
Sidney E Morgan 10
View
Original
Record
View Original Image
View blank form
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 1015; Folio 39; Page 13; GSU roll: 6096125.
Μύ The address for them , is School Ally, Sunbury George and William are Ground Labourers -
Message 27
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
Thanks for that.
Here are the children of Robert Snr. My William's grandfather and Elizabeth's husband.
Ann b1831
William b1833
Sarah b1834
Jacob b1836
Robert b1838 (Cant be my Williams father)
Emma b1840
Mary b1844
George b1847 (on the census but shown as unmarried so cant be him)
Ellen b1851 (on the census)
James b1857
Now who is the father ? :o(Μύ If ' your' William is born 1870 ish then Robert or George could be the father , saying single on the census doesnt preclude them from being fathers ! or an unmarried daughter even ........ ( or have I missed something ? ) -
Message 28
Posted by MrGrinch-Champion of the Middle Saxons (U1934518) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
Havnt we just established Robert isnt as thats where ive made the mistake linking William to him. I thought just as he has a William in his household roughly the same age that he was mine but now we have traced that William through the census, we know that it cant be him.
So my William, although the same family could be George's but im not sure. The three children could be Ellen's illigitamate kids but again not sure.
Thats leaves William b1833, Jacob b1836 or James b 1867 as potential fathers.
Maybe.
:o( -
Message 29
Posted by Mabel Bagshawe (U2222589) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
1881 suggests Ellen as mother?
Name: William Morgan
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Grandson
Mother's Name: Ellen Morgan
Gender: Male
Where born: Sunbury, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Sunbury
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address: Haliford Road
Education:
Registration district: Staines
Sub-registration district: Sunbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1327
Folio: 78
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Morgan 71
Ellen Morgan 29
William Morgan 8
George Morgan 6
Sydney Morgan
This might also be of interest
Name: William Morgan
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1873
Baptism Date: 14 Feb 1873
Mother's Name: Ellen Morgan
Parish or Poor Law Union: Sunbury on Thames St Mary
Borough: Richmond upon Thames
In the entry it says George and Ellen - with George crossed out -
Message 30
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Tuesday, 1st November 2011
Think you've cracked it Mabel
can't see George as yet but here's Sydney
, Ellens address is Union House , and she's a washer woman
Name: Sydney Edward Morgan
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1880
Baptism Date: 23 May 1880
Mother's Name: Ellen Morgan
Parish or Poor Law Union: Stanwell St Mary the Virgin
Borough: Richmond upon Thames -
Message 31
Posted by MrGrinch-Champion of the Middle Saxons (U1934518) on Wednesday, 2nd November 2011
Cool good info.
So was Ellen, the daughter of Robert Snr born 1851 ? If so, then these baptism entries do not mention a father so were these three her illigitamate children or was Ellen someone else and married George Morgan again a son of Robert Snr ?
Confused
G -
Message 32
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Wednesday, 2nd November 2011
Cool good info.
So was Ellen, the daughter of Robert Snr born 1851 ? If so, then these baptism entries do not mention a father so were these three her illigitamate children or was Ellen someone else and married George Morgan again a son of Robert Snr ?
Confused
GΜύ Message 3 with the 1861 census has your answer Mr G ........... Ellen appears on that as daughter, and Robert born 1838 as son -
Message 33
Posted by MrGrinch-Champion of the Middle Saxons (U1934518) on Wednesday, 2nd November 2011
Hi Basful,
Yes i can see now and this tie's in with my tree BUT, now we have established my William is Ellen's son, does this mean the three son's are all illigitamate ? If so, who is George that is mentioned ? Is he the father ?
On the 1891 census George, Ellen's brother is living with Mary and Ellen along with my William both George and Ellen are unmarried. Is it a co-incidence ?
Do the baptism entries not any father ?
Regards
G -
Message 34
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Wednesday, 2nd November 2011
On Sydneys baptism there is no father mentioned on the original ( LMA records), and as someone else mentioned the name George has been crossed out on the original of Williams baptism........... Maybe brother George went with Ellen to the baptism and the officials thought mistakenly he was the father , but was told otherwise after writing it down . I suppose the only way to confirm if all the sons were illigitamate is to get the birth certificates, ( expensive I know ) though it looks as if they are!
-
Message 35
Posted by MrGrinch-Champion of the Middle Saxons (U1934518) on Wednesday, 2nd November 2011
I think you maybe right Basful !
Thanks everyone for the help
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