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James Theobald and wife
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Appreciate some help with this one please.
I am looking for a James Theobald the father of Mary Catherine/Kathleen to see who he married and who her mother was.
Mary is the lady I always knew as Molly born, according to her death cert, 12 March 1911 Swindon Wilts.
I've never found her on the 1911, I suppose as she was only a couple of weeks old she may not have had a name yet? nor have I found a birth in Swindon for her.
On her marriage cert in Swindon 1941 father is deceased. I have no idea who her mother was but would like to find out.
There is a James born Purton Wilts 1862 who dies Swindon 1929 that could be the father. He is still single in 1901 but I can't find a marriage between then and her birth.
It would make him an older father so am guessing his wife was much younger.
Grateful for any other options to trace her mother/James wife. -
Message 2
Posted by BoothHunter (U14812392) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Appreciate some help with this one please.
I am looking for a James Theobald the father of Mary Catherine/Kathleen to see who he married and who her mother was.
Mary is the lady I always knew as Molly born, according to her death cert, 12 March 1911 Swindon Wilts.
I've never found her on the 1911, I suppose as she was only a couple of weeks old she may not have had a name yet? nor have I found a birth in Swindon for her.
On her marriage cert in Swindon 1941 father is deceased. I have no idea who her mother was but would like to find out.
There is a James born Purton Wilts 1862 who dies Swindon 1929 that could be the father. He is still single in 1901 but I can't find a marriage between then and her birth.
It would make him an older father so am guessing his wife was much younger.
Grateful for any other options to trace her mother/James wife.Μύ
Here are some Theobald's in Wiltshire Tourmie...I'm not awake yet so apologies if I have misread your post request!
BH -
Message 3
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Theres this one , registered a bit late and not near Swindon
Sept 1911
THEOBALD Mary C Paxton Guildford 2a 149 -
Message 4
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Thanks for replying. I'm really struggling with this one.
That birth is possible I guess if she wasn't born in Swindon after all. Maybe she wasn't born early enough to be on the 1911 despite the birthdate on her death cert which is 12 March 1911 which is why I can't find her?
There are a couple of unnamed Theobald little ones but not in Wilts and if she was a newborn surely she should be with her mother.
Possible parents weren't married but then she has his surname. It's a real mystery who her mother was. I suppose the only option I have is to send for this Guildford one and see if the father is James and take it from there.
Any other suggestions for tracing the mother? -
Message 5
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Well there isn't a James Theobald/Paxton marriage that I can see but there is a marriage in Croydon with those surnames in 1899 that might account for that birth.
Finding them in 1911 won't really help will it oh dear. -
Message 6
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Right that married couple are in Guildford in 1911 with 4 children youngest age 2 so I am going to say the Mary C born 1911 more likely than not belongs to them.
Back to square one again - where is the birth for my Mary C? I have a feeling it's nothing suspicious just something simple I am missing. -
Message 7
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Do the death and marriage cert give any clues ? ie witnesses and informant , maybe the mother can be traced back through them
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Message 8
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Not really I'm afraid. The marriage has witnesses A Hancock and A W Iles.
A W Iles was husbands brother in law (his sisters husband)
Not sure about A Hancock at the moment.
She was 30 when she married (spinster) in July 1941 so that would fit a birth year of early 1911.
The death informant is husband so no clues there. Middle name there is shown as Kathleen and date and place of birth given as 12 March 1911 Swindon Wilts. -
Message 9
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Woke up with another thought which is maybe her parents weren't married when she was born and she was registered under mothers name? Having said that I can't see any Mary Catherine/Kathleens born in the right area right time either.
The only possible is a Mary K Hulbert Jun 1911 which would fit with a March birth.
Or there is a plain Mary Smith same quarter
I did think of looking for a death for her mother under Theobald but when I don't know.
Presume it would be Swindon as my father remembers meeting her. -
Message 10
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
here's the Hulbert child in 1911 ..........
HULBERT, Henry Head Married M 37 1874 Certificated Teacher School Elem Wilts Swindon
HULBERT, Kate Worgan Wife Married
9 years F 40 1871 Wilts Corsham
HULBERT, Philip Henry Son M 4 1907 Wilts Swindon
HULBERT, Kathleen Mary Daughter F 1 1910 Wilts Swindon >>>>>>>>
HULBERT, Anna Mother Widow F 70 1841 Wilts North Wraxall
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
11778 Reference:
RG14PN11778 RG78PN651 RD240 SD2 ED12 SN110
Registration District:
Address:
289 Cricklade Road Gorse Hill Swindon Wiltshire County:
Wiltshire -
Message 11
Posted by anisel (U1752839) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
In 1911 there is an unnamed female Theobald less than a month old in Queen Charlotte's Hospital, St Marylebone, and on a separate page what is presumably her mother Jessie Theobald, aged 27, born in 'Anglesea, Holyhead', married less than a year with one child born/living.
This would be the corresponding marriage:
Marriages Dec 1910
Sheldrake Jessie Holborn 1b 1232
Theobald John C Holborn 1b 1232
It wouldn't be hard to turn John into James - either could be known as Jack. FreeBMD has no further Theobald births with MMN Sheldrake. -
Message 12
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
a little earlier births
Births Dec 1910 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JORDAN Mary C Swindon 5a 11
LAVINGTON Mary K Swindon 5a 19
WHITING Mary Swindon 5a 7 -
Message 13
Posted by anisel (U1752839) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
As the unnamed baby Theobald was born in hospital, I'd have expected her birth to be registered promptly but there is no Theobald birth registered in Marylebone in the March quarter. There is one with the middle initial K:
Births Mar 1911
Theobald Grace K Malling 2a 777
In the June quarter there is one birth registered in Marylebone, and another with the middle initials MC:
Births Jun 1911
Theobald Eva E M Marylebone 1a 448
Theobald Norah M C Tendring 4a 756 -
Message 14
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Here's that Nora MC on 1911
THEOBALD, Harriet Creake Wife Married F 27 1884 Husband At Sea Cambridge Town
THEOBALD, Nora Cove Daughter F 0 1911 Essex Dovercourt
HAZELWOOD, Annie Monthly Nurse Married F 56 1855 London Oldford
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
10248 Reference:
RG14PN10248 RG78PN540 RD197 SD3 ED2 SN428
Registration District:
Tendring Sub District:
Harwich Enumeration District:
2 Parish:
Dovercourt -
Message 15
Posted by anisel (U1752839) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
The births Bashfuljan found seemed very promising, until I checked them out in 1911:
Mary Constance Jordan youngest of 8, living with parents Edwin and Louisa in Swindon
Mary Katherine Lavington, only child, living with parents Henry and Ada in Swindon
Mary Whiting, youngest of 4, living with parents Levi and Emma in Swindon -
Message 16
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Thanks for your efforts I'm going to have a proper read through what you've found.
-
Message 17
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
in 1911 There is a James Theobald b 1861 Purton, single - a butcher living in Swindonas a boarder.
Jo -
Message 18
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Here's that Nora MC on 1911
THEOBALD, Harriet Creake Wife Married F 27 1884 Husband At Sea Cambridge Town
THEOBALD, Nora Cove Daughter F 0 1911 Essex Dovercourt
HAZELWOOD, Annie Monthly Nurse Married F 56 1855 London Oldford
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
10248 Reference:
RG14PN10248 RG78PN540 RD197 SD3 ED2 SN428
Registration District:
Tendring Sub District:
Harwich Enumeration District:
2 Parish:
Dovercourt
Μύ
The Nora Cove is aged under 1 month according to the image. The census was taken 2nd April.
Jo -
Message 19
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
in 1911 There is a James Theobald b 1861 Purton, single - a butcher living in Swindonas a boarder.
JoΜύ Ah yes that was the James I had tentatively pegged as prime suspect for her father. I guess he still could have been despite being single in 1911 really can't tell at this stage without a birth certificate for her.
I spoke to my father again this morning and he reckons her mother who was a widow - well manless - when he met her must have died in the 1940's but that's just a guess.
This is the woman who had the pet monkey we've mentioned before! Rumours of gypsy heritage but I find no evidence of that with the father (if is he) so it must be her side. -
Message 20
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Not the right one. Harriet Creake Taylor born Cambridgeshire June Q 1883 married a Benjamin Warboys Theobald in 1906.
Jo -
Message 21
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Goodness it's a nightmare this one. Have had another thought.......I know the address she lived at before the house was demolished, would it be possible to look up that address to see who was living there for any year?
It was 18 Wellington Street Swindon. -
Message 22
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Ah now we are getting somewhere with the address idea bingo
I looked for probate for James Theobald who died 1929 (the Purton one I had as suspect number one) and it says James of 18 Wellington Street Swindon died 26 Jan 1929 to Mabel Theobald widow.
So now we know he married a Mabel........have to go now but can anyone find a marriage for them please? -
Message 23
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Though he is unmarried in 1911, you should consider that whilst the person who registered the death of Mary probably knew her birthday, they may not have known her exact year. People forgot, lied, didn't tell. I have seen cases that are a couple of years out when the death is registered. If she was 1912, 1913 birth, it could account for why she is not found in 1911.
Jo -
Message 24
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Name: THEOBALD, James
Registration District: Swindon
County: Wiltshire
Year of Registration: 1918
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last name: Greenaway
Volume No: Help 5A
Page No: Help 51
Name: GREENAWAY, Mabel
Registration District: Swindon
County: Wiltshire
Year of Registration: 1918
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last name: Theobald
Volume No: 5A
Page No: 51
Better late than never -
Message 25
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Hmm, Look what I found ! ( only one that I can see that comes close , can't see a Theobald/greenaway birth , tho its a long way from Swindon area !
Births Jun 1919 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greenaway Kathleen M Greenaway Greenwich 1d 1354 -
Message 26
Posted by Mabel Bagshawe (U2222589) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
There's another marriage posible in swindon to a Mabel
Name: James Theobald
Spouse Surname: Mason
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1913
Registration district: Swindon
Inferred County: Wiltshire
Volume Number: 5a
Page Number: 81
Name: Mabel M Mason
Spouse Surname: Theobald
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1913
Registration district: Swindon
Inferred County: Wiltshire
Volume Number: 5a
Page Number: 81
For info I looked at Mary K Hulbert - birth registered Q2 1911, death 1912 -
Message 27
Posted by Mabel Bagshawe (U2222589) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
There's a James Theobald b 1891 living in Swindon when he enlists in 1916 whose service records are on Ancestry. Address looks like 15 Byron St
No family details sadly -
Message 28
Posted by Mabel Bagshawe (U2222589) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
1901 - and he's still at home in 1911
Name: James Theobald
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John Theobald
Mother's Name: Rebbeca Theobald
Gender: Male
Where born: Purton, Wiltshire, England
Civil parish: Purton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Wiltshire
Country: England
Registration district: Cricklade
Sub-registration district: Cricklade
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 129
Piece: 1912
Folio: 103
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
John Theobald 46
Rebbeca Theobald 46
Fred Theobald 14
Ethel Theobald 12
James Theobald 11
Alice Theobald 10
Charles Theobald 8 -
Message 29
Posted by Mabel Bagshawe (U2222589) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Hmm
Swindon Wiltshire
GREENAWAY MABEL F 1888 23 - single, private means, b Blunsdon
GREENAWAY EDGAR DENNIS M 1906 5 - b Swindon
GREENAWAY KATHLEEN MARY F 1908 3 - b Kensington, London
GREENAWAY LAURANCE JIM M 1910 7 MONTHS - b Blunsdon
Name: Miss Greenaway
Number of Males: 2
Number of Females: 2
Household schedule number: 219
Street Address: Blunsdon Hill
Civil parish: Blunsdon St Andrew
Ecclesiastical parish: Blunsdon St Leonard
County/Island: Wiltshire
Country: England
Registration district: Swindon
Registration District Number: 1
Sub-registration district: Hihworth
Sub-Registration District Number: 1
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 650
Of the two marriages in Swindon to Mabels
Mabel M Baker married 1913 is I think
Name: Mabel Maud Theobald
Birth Date: 14 Sep 1889
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1979
Age at Death: 90
Registration district: Swindon
Inferred County: Wiltshire
Volume: 23
Page: 2338
leaving this possibility for Mabel Greenaway
Name: Mabel Theobald
Birth Date: abt 1891
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1948
Age at Death: 57
Registration district: Swindon
Inferred County: Wiltshire
Volume: 7c
Page: 526 -
Message 30
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Births Jun 1908 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greenaway Kathleen Mary Chelsea 1a 380 -
Message 31
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Oh I've just written out a long message and lost it
James Theobald
abt 1862
Jan-Feb-Mar 1929
Swindon
Wiltshire
This is the correct father confirmed by the address in the probate. I thought this was the one born Purton that was the butcher but looks like there is another JT born Purton with different parents?
Greenaway seems the best bet doesn't it Were those 3 on the 1911 all children of Mabel who was unmarried goodness me. -
Message 32
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Aah no the other JT born Purton was much younger so can rule him out.
-
Message 33
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Private means ............ sounds as if Daddy is rather well off , or father/s to children is/are !
-
Message 34
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Indeed! Plenty to investigate tomorrow after a good sleep on it. Have spent a lot of time puzzling about this one today.
Finding Mable in earlier years might reveal something about her situation.
Not sure what other confirmation we can find - would getting any of the certificates confirm anything once and for all - am not entirely sure. -
Message 35
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Looks like there'll be no fathers names on the certs , ( though I could be wrong) ............ The LMA baptism records on Ances... only go up to 1906, I checked in case Kathleen was baptised in London
Think James Theobald was established as single on 1911 wasn't he ? so no ' couldn't marry Mabel because he was already married' scenario -
Message 36
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
Brace yourselves I have woken up with about a dozen more thoughts and questions
Firstly please what address is Mabel on the 1911 - anything more precise than Blunsdon Hill?
I've found the births of the other 2 children in Swindon and a Mabel Ellen in 1889.
This gives a 25+ year age gap between her and James
I wonder why she chose to toddle off to London to have Kathleen, lot of little mysteries here. Also wonder if James is the father of all 3.
Reading back through someone mentioned a James that was a soldier and that is ringing a bell. I am thinking I either got a marriage or birth before that had James as a soldier and discounted it. Hope I am wrong!
What do you think my best bet of a certificate would be to give the most valuable confirmation? -
Message 37
Posted by Mabel Bagshawe (U2222589) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
Mabel's father was a sawyer, so the private means weren't from him! The address on 1911 is no more helpful than shown on the entry, sorry
I think this may prove interesting - was trying to follow the boys up as Greenaways, without much success
Name: Laurence J Greenaway
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1910
Registration district: Swindon
Inferred County: Wiltshire
Volume: 5a
Page: 6
Name: Jim Laurence Theobald
Birth Date: 5 Aug 1910
Date of Registration: Jul 1995
Age at Death: 84
Registration district: Swindon
Inferred County: Wiltshire
Register number: B45B
District and Subdistrict: 7961B
Entry number: 167 -
Message 38
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
Mabels address on 1911 is
Blunsdon Hill Blunsdon St Leonard, St Leonard appears to be the parish church , according to Wikipedia -
Message 39
Posted by Mabel Bagshawe (U2222589) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
James the soldier from Swindon is a younger chap - b c1890 (possible as William James). I think he may have married the other Mabel. I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related as they both have Purton connections
-
Message 40
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
Now that is interesting, father of him too then by the looks of it.
Perhaps the private means were from the London connection whatever that was.
Seems very odd she popped up there to have a daughter inbetween the boys.
Could have got work there I suppose but seems random - and what kind of work.
I can't think what certificate would be the most help if any. Birth will give the mother only presumably, marriage of parents - would that help? I guess it might give an address. The 18 Wellington Street is the only one I know from the old days.
When I visited James and Mabel were long gone and daughter lived elsewhere.
Didn't have much choice as the house was demolished!
Hmmmmm. -
Message 41
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
GREENAWAY, Edgar Dennis
Registration District: Help Swindon
County: Wiltshire
Year of Registration: 1905
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Mother's Maiden Name: Not available before 1911 Q3
Volume No: Help 5A
Page No: Help 40
Name: THEOBALD, Dennis E
Registration District: Help Surrey South Western
County: Surrey
Year of Registration: 1969
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at death: 63
Volume No: 5G
Page No: 563 -
Message 42
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
Right phew I can stop worrying about the soldier then thanks
Yes I know Blunsdon, it isn't far from me. Making headway now I feel. -
Message 43
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
Now that's funny isn't it they all switch their Christian names about - all 3 of them plus change the surnames blimey it's a wonder they knew who they were!
-
Message 44
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
Births Jun 1908 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greenaway Kathleen Mary Chelsea 1a 380
Μύ She probably went to be a servant in one of the 'big houses' in the area , and caught the attention of some master of the house( or son of the head of house ) , got fired because of the impending birth of Kathleen , then went back to parents , in Wiltshire with 'hush money' being promised by babys father ! -
Message 45
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
On the 1911 census image the address says Blunsdon nr Highworth if that helps.
I did have a quick look to see if the births had been re registered as you can do once the father is back on the scene, but with no luck, well up to 1930 anyway.
The marriage cert may give some clues.
The death cert for one of the children may also give a clue.
Jo -
Message 46
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
All the children outlived Mabel so I don't know if a death cert for any of them would help. I have the death cert for Kathleen.
Will send for the marriage of James and Mabel I think and the Kathleen birth in Chelsea.
You think someone in London was her father not James and James took the rap?
If the other two boys took his name it seems odd she wasn't his but hey you never know he might have taken on the lot. He was much older. -
Message 47
Posted by Mabel Bagshawe (U2222589) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
It seems quite common to take on "stepfather"'s name whether or not they are biologically related
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Message 48
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
Yes I understand. It was naive of me to think he was the biological father of all 3. At his respectable age you would have thought he would have married her sooner if he was the culprit.
Who knows they may have all had different fathers. Doubtful will ever find out. If the two boys married no doubt they put James as the father same as Kathleen did.
I wonder if she ever knew where she was born.
She would have been old enough when mother married.
Will await the two certificates and see if any more surprises pop up. -
Message 49
Posted by Mabel Bagshawe (U2222589) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
< At his respectable age you would have thought he would have married her sooner if he was the culprit. >
Maybe there's a wife in the background somewhere (despite him saying he's single on censuses throughout) that prevented marriage -
Message 50
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Thursday, 27th October 2011
Could be Mabel but he doesn't seem to have maintained a home of his own does he.
In 1871 he was with parents, 1881 living with brother, 1891 a lodger, 1901 a boarder and in 1911 he was lodging - do we have an address for him in 1911 please?
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