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Finding graves?
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Thursday, 13th October 2011
I have been trying to find the graves of my twin sisters, who died in December 1942 & March 1943 in Bradford. I have been in touch with a lady at the hospital & she has really tried, but absolutely no trace. They were born 26th December 1942 & my mother always said that they were buried in someone else's grave, but I can't seem to find anything out. Can anyone help please? Their names were Maureen Sybil Hepton and Sylvia Ann Hepton.
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Message 2
Posted by jc (U1902680) on Thursday, 13th October 2011
I have found one of Bradford's cemeteries online
www.undercliffecemetery.co.uk/
You could contact them and explain your dilemma, see if they would check their records for burials. If it comes back negative, ask for names of other cemeteries in the area and then contact them.
Personally, I am not familiar with Bradford at all so unfortunately cannot recommend which cemetery to try first. -
Message 3
Posted by Tourmie (U13798934) on Thursday, 13th October 2011
Were they little ones when they died? In someone elses grave does that mean a family member do you know? If so that could be a good place to start looking for family plots otherwise jc's suggestion is the way to go with contacting local cemeteries. Good luck
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Message 4
Posted by blossom (U8480392) on Thursday, 13th October 2011
Usually if it is someone elses grave it is a common or public grave.
That means that they would be buried with people who are not necessarily family. -
Message 5
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Thursday, 13th October 2011
Diane
Several things are unclear from your letter. I hope you will forgive my asking some direct questions concerning what must be a painful area for you.
Do you live in Bradford yourself? If you do, and are able to do some research yourself, I could point you in the right direction. If you don't live locally I'd happily look into the question for you although, since it will require burrowing in paper records, this will take some time.
Can you tell me if your sisters died at St Luke's Hospital or Bradford Royal Infirmary? Did your family belong to a religious denomination that might have influenced their selection of a cemetery? Did your mother actually attend an interment? Almost any additional information at all might be helpful.
Bradford has several large municipal cemeteries which should have reasonably good records. There were also many small cemeteries attached to places of worship. In general owners bought a grave plot in which there could be several family burials. However the church might have arrangements with a local hospital to bury, at low cost, those with no known family or with families unable to make their own arrangements. Normally this would occur in plots designated for the purpose. It is less likely, but I suppose possible, that burials might occur in plots that notionally had an owner, but which had not be used or visited for many years.
TP -
Message 6
Posted by tigzak (U14667866) on Thursday, 13th October 2011
Hi Diane
Maybe I can help you because of my own searching I have a disc of all the burials at undercliffe cemetary and on saturday I will look these names up for you, sorry but I am busy tomorrow hope saturday will do I also have disc for great horton cemetary so will look at that for you as well, no I am not a vampire just someone doing family tree research.
tigzak -
Message 7
Posted by mrsgrumbly (U14398650) on Thursday, 13th October 2011
Hi Diane,
I have checked the Undercliffe cemetery disc I have, however they are not recorded on it. Unfortunately the disc is not a complete record of all the burials at Undercliffe as some areas have not been transcribed and the disc has been prepared from the memorial inscriptions. So if they are buried there, it is in either a part of the cemetery that has not been recorded or they are not on a M.I. I will check the NBI for them when I get a few minutes but unfortunately there is a paucity of records for Bradford on there.
One of the difficulties in tracing burials is that, certainly to my knowledge in this area, the records are kept in chronological order, not alphabetically. As you know roughly the date of death that should make it is easier to check the records of the main cemeteries, if you can access them. If however they are not buried in one of the main cemeteries it may prove difficult to track them down.
Post any additional details you have and someone on here will try to help or at least point you in the right direction.
Linda -
Message 8
Posted by mrsgrumbly (U14398650) on Thursday, 13th October 2011
Hi,
I have now checked the National Burial Index (NBI) and there is no record for them on there. Sorry! As said before if you have any further info post it on here and we'll see if one of us can help. Also let us know whether you are local to Bradford as it may be that one of us can point you in the direction of where to try next.
Linda -
Message 9
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Friday, 14th October 2011
Usually if it is someone elses grave it is a common or public grave.
That means that they would be buried with people who are not necessarily family.Μύ I think you are correct, but I wanted to know if there was any way of finding out whose grave they were buried in ? -
Message 10
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Friday, 14th October 2011
Thank you & no I live in Berkshire & left Bradford when I was 3 years old. I have been in touch with a lady at St Lukes & she tried really hard, asking various graveyards, but with no joy, so I don't really know where to go next. I have tried searching for friends of my mother, but she was nearly 88 when she died in 2004, so no one to ask. If you have any ideas, I would love to hear.
Thank you
I could let you have my email if you think it would help. -
Message 11
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Friday, 14th October 2011
You wouldn't be able to put your email address on here; Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ data protection rules don't allow any personal details to be posted, or information about a living person (including you) -
Message 12
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Friday, 14th October 2011
Thank you so much, that is very kind of you. I don't know whether you can PM on this board or not, as don't like to publish my email address!
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Message 13
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Friday, 14th October 2011
I would not think they would have a Memorial inscription, if they are in someone else's grave. I have only just found out that one died on December 30th, but I am waiting to receive the copy death certificate for the other one. my mother was C of E & quite religious, but she has never talked about an internment. I suppose as it was during the war everything was done differently. I always thought that the second twin only died a week or so after the first, but according to BMI, it was March 1943, but no date. she never said whether it was Bradford Infirmary or St Lukes & I was born at Semon Nursing home Ilkey in 1944. They lived in Portsmouth avenue, but don't know if that is any help.
Everyone has been very helpful, thank you. -
Message 14
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Friday, 14th October 2011
This Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ board doesn't have a PM facility , but Rootschat forum does ,
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Message 15
Posted by bishenbertie (U13222350) on Friday, 14th October 2011
The second child could have died a few weeks after the first which was in December 1942 as the March Quarter 1943 would be from 1st January to 31st March 1943. The death cert will state the date of death.
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Message 16
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Friday, 14th October 2011
Hi Diane
Portsmouth Avenue is very close to Undercliffe Cemetery, although this is not proof. I'm sure that things were different in wartime but burial in someone else's grave is unusual, and normally you would expect a child's mother to be present at an interment particularly if the event was of religious significance for her. I'm happy to do some research next week (assuming nobody solves your problem in the next few days) but it will, I guess, take some time. Please keep an eye on this thread, and if you do obtain any further information please let us know.
TP -
Message 17
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Saturday, 15th October 2011
Hi Diane
Portsmouth Avenue is very close to Undercliffe Cemetery, although this is not proof. I'm sure that things were different in wartime but burial in someone else's grave is unusual, and normally you would expect a child's mother to be present at an interment particularly if the event was of religious significance for her. I'm happy to do some research next week (assuming nobody solves your problem in the next few days) but it will, I guess, take some time. Please keep an eye on this thread, and if you do obtain any further information please let us know.
°Υ±ΚΜύ You are very kind & I really appreciate it. I will let you know when I have the death certificate. Is Portsmouth Avenue still there?!!!! -
Message 18
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Saturday, 15th October 2011
Hi Diane
I'll go to check on the ground next week. There has been much demolition in that area and it's not my area of the city. I don't have a good enough Internet connection for Google Earth at present.
We'll keep trying!
TP -
Message 19
Posted by mrsgrumbly (U14398650) on Saturday, 15th October 2011
Diane,
There may be problems with research in Bradford for the time being as the library has been closed with immediate effect. More details on my new thread for TwinProbe and Tigzak's attention
Linda -
Message 20
Posted by vickydykes1981 (U15005423) on Saturday, 15th October 2011
Hi, if you phone bradford council and ask for the parks and cemetries department they should be able to check burials on their database,
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Message 21
Posted by mrsgrumbly (U14398650) on Saturday, 15th October 2011
Hi Diane and TwinProbe,
I do have google earth and have checked on it for Portsmouth Avenue. The street is still there with terraced houses on it. It is just off Otley Road on the opposite side to the turn off for Undercliffe Road.
Diane if you are able to access google earth you will see how close the address is to Undercliffe Cemetery. If I were you I would make Undercliffe cemetery the first place to contact to see if your sisters are buried there before trying anywhere else. I think you've already been given a link to the website. I have already checked the disc for Undercliffe and your sisters are not on it. The cemetery's original records should have details of all internments even if there is no gravestone or inscritption on a gravestone. I have not dealt with Undercliffe myself in my research, but I have heard from others who have, that they are very helpful.
Linda -
Message 22
Posted by harrywrag (U5960852) on Sunday, 16th October 2011
hi i dont know if this may help but i googled( undertakers undercliffe bradford )and there is one in undercliffe road just wondering if perhaps they were in bussiness at the time you are looking at or perhaps they could help advise not sure if i am allowed to put the address up but you will get it if you google it. they may be able to tell you what would happen around that time.
harrywrag -
Message 23
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Sunday, 16th October 2011
Thank you again everyone & I will certainly contact Undercliffe cemetery, although I think the lady from the hospital did that, but will be persistent! also when I get home I will contact the undertakers, funny, I had never even thought of that!
Didn't think Portsmouth Avenue would still be there & I will have a look on Google Maps which I think is as good as Googleearth. thank you again & sure I will find them in the end. -
Message 24
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Sunday, 16th October 2011
Hi Diane
The closure of Bradford Library (and consequently the local studies section) will impose a big delay but don't give up checking this site. I'll see what I can do as soon as I get access to the records.
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 25
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Monday, 17th October 2011
Hi Diane
The closure of Bradford Library (and consequently the local studies section) will impose a big delay but don't give up checking this site. I'll see what I can do as soon as I get access to the records.
Best wishes,
°Υ±ΚΜύ Thank you TP. -
Message 26
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 17th October 2011
Diane
In the absence of cemetery records to check I've been trying to find out how common the surname of Hepton is in Bradford. It looks as if it is very uncommon (which is good from a family history point of view of course).
In the 1911 census the only Heptons in the city seem to be railway carter Joseph 34 & Annie Hepton, 32, and their three children Albert 5, Annie 2 and Ida 8/12. Are these relatives of yours do you know?
TP -
Message 27
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 17th October 2011
Diane
I've had another thought. Did I read elsewhere that your father Joseph was a musician. I see in the London Gazette that in 1944 a man called William Hepton died in Hull (where the surname is commoner) leaving money to Joseph Hepton, musician and Harry Hepton, Commercial Clerk.
In 1911 there are Wm & Kate Hepton in Hull. They have four sons, three of whom are William, Joseph and Harold. Could these be yours?
TP -
Message 28
Posted by dmatt47 (U13073434) on Tuesday, 18th October 2011
I don't know whether this will help, the following is a guide to looking for a burial, although the fees and charges link doesn't seem to be working. They do have a Cemetery Registrar if this helps.
Best of luck. -
Message 29
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Friday, 21st October 2011
Diane
I've had another thought. Did I read elsewhere that your father Joseph was a musician. I see in the London Gazette that in 1944 a man called William Hepton died in Hull (where the surname is commoner) leaving money to Joseph Hepton, musician and Harry Hepton, Commercial Clerk.
In 1911 there are Wm & Kate Hepton in Hull. They have four sons, three of whom are William, Joseph and Harold. Could these be yours?
°Υ±ΚΜύ That is amazing, as my Dad did have a brother called Harry, didn't know of any relatives called Bill, but quite a common name. Only just found your reply, been a bit busy this week.
Have received Sylvia Ann, the second twins death certificate, she died on January 12th, but just says Bradford, as place of death.
Will now read your reply again, thank you very much. -
Message 30
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Friday, 21st October 2011
Diane
In the absence of cemetery records to check I've been trying to find out how common the surname of Hepton is in Bradford. It looks as if it is very uncommon (which is good from a family history point of view of course).
In the 1911 census the only Heptons in the city seem to be railway carter Joseph 34 & Annie Hepton, 32, and their three children Albert 5, Annie 2 and Ida 8/12. Are these relatives of yours do you know?
°Υ±ΚΜύ Yes,Ida & Albert were my Dad's siblings, he wasn't born until 1913 & Annie & Joseph were his parents ,With his father being a stoker on the railways. It is whetting my appetite, I think I would like to research my fathers family more, as I have done my mothers, who came from Filey. -
Message 31
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Friday, 21st October 2011
I have emailed them & they were very helpful & searched lots of records, all to no avail. They even got in touch with Keighley!
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Message 32
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Saturday, 22nd October 2011
Hi Diane
I have been able to check the records of Heaton cemetery, but the only Heptons there date from the 1880s. I've had another thought. When your sisters died would your parents have put a small notice in the BMD column of the local newspaper? If the library local studies department is ever open again I shall check.
TP -
Message 33
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Saturday, 22nd October 2011
Thank you very much. Was the local paper called 'The Telegraph & Argus?' Maybe it is online now, i will have a look.
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Message 34
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Saturday, 22nd October 2011
Hi Diane
The local paper is the T & A now and was in the 1940s. To the best of my knowledge it is not available on line. It will be a simple matter to check the microfilm version in the Library. when we get access to the 3rd floor of the library again!
TP -
Message 35
Posted by yorkshiregirl7 (U15012873) on Sunday, 23rd October 2011
I have been trying to find the graves of my twin sisters, who died in December 1942 & March 1943 in Bradford. I have been in touch with a lady at the hospital & she has really tried, but absolutely no trace. They were born 26th December 1942 & my mother always said that they were buried in someone else's grave, but I can't seem to find anything out. Can anyone help please? Their names were Maureen Sybil Hepton and Sylvia Ann Hepton. Μύ Hi....there is a cemetery in Bradford called Bowling Cemetery on Rooley Lanem if if you put it in a search engine it will take you to the 'findagrave' website...you can search for a grave by name.....good luck. I was born in Bradford and if I can help you in your search, I would be pleased to do it........I don't live there now, but my sister does and I visit often.........incidentally, I worked for a short time at the Semon Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ - small word - there is also a cemetery called Scholemoor Cemtery in Bradford.
I'm new to this website (my first post) and a novice with computers, so hope this finds you -
Message 36
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Sunday, 23rd October 2011
thank you, that is very kind, I will have a look at the website of Bowling cemetery. There seem to be quite a few cemeteries in Bradford. Fancy you working at Semon nursing home, my mother was sent there to have me, as there were too many bombs falling in Bradford, or so I was told!
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Message 37
Posted by SpecialNeedsGirl (U14270238) on Sunday, 23rd October 2011
Please let us know the outcome of your search.
I too have been looking for burial plots for family members.
We have found that the council cemetries dept keep very good records and are able to tell you the undertakers and plots etc with much detail. Some counties charge a nominal fee for this.
Churches do not keep such good records - and are still not keeping them (my parents' grave is not listed in the church and mum only died last year)
However some have excellent details.
We have pauper's graves whereby the ancester is buried in an area that is for paupers and no specific plot is given
and
one child was buried in a paupers grave which was subsequently sold to a traveller who happened to die while working in the town. There is no headstone for him but we cannot claim the grave because his widow bought it.
In the Merthyr area they are selling 'second hand graves' because of the shortage of land. the graves were paupers and only one person has be previously buried there.
Good luck with your search.
best wishes -
Message 38
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Monday, 24th October 2011
Thank you, I just feel that somewhere there must be a list of babies that were buried at the foot of someone else's graves, but no luck yet! It makes it more difficult when you don't live anywhere near, but I will keep trying. Think I might look on Google & see what church is near Portsmouth avenue. Good luck in all your searching.
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Message 39
Posted by clematised (U3233879) on Monday, 24th October 2011
Just a thought Diane,
blossom on the bar thread used to work at a cemetery office many years ago so I will ask her if she had come across this sort of child burial and if so what paperwork would there be for it.
Edna -
Message 40
Posted by blossom (U8480392) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Diane, Firstly the undertaker would have a record of the grave number and which Cemetery,name of the owner of the grave it it was a private one, even the cost of the funeral.(that could mean quite a few phone calls),secondly the cemetery should have a record of the burials regardless if it was in another persons grave or a grave where unrelated people are(known as a common grave),or a paupers grave(people who were buried by the Local Authority because the family could not afford to do it). Some cemeteries charge for searching but should be able to give you an idea of how much it may cost. The cemetery I worked in was privately owned and I never charged for this sort of information.which also included how deep the grave was..
Please bear in mind that it was also wartime so records for that time could be numerous.
I wish you luck with your search. -
Message 41
Posted by BoothHunter (U14812392) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
I found this link a while back - it's the National Association of Undertakers - just in case you need it...
good luck
BH -
Message 42
Posted by BoothHunter (U14812392) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Thank you, I just feel that somewhere there must be a list of babies that were buried at the foot of someone else's graves, but no luck yet! It makes it more difficult when you don't live anywhere near, but I will keep trying. Think I might look on Google & see what church is near Portsmouth avenue. Good luck in all your searching.Μύ
Undercliffe cometary burials list for you - no Heptons - but Heptonstall...
BH -
Message 43
Posted by BoothHunter (U14812392) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
I have been trying to find the graves of my twin sisters, who died in December 1942 & March 1943 in Bradford. I have been in touch with a lady at the hospital & she has really tried, but absolutely no trace. They were born 26th December 1942 & my mother always said that they were buried in someone else's grave, but I can't seem to find anything out. Can anyone help please? Their names were Maureen Sybil Hepton and Sylvia Ann Hepton. Μύ Hi Diane...I just found this link ctrl +f and search Undercliffe - there has been some research done about burials...might help...
BH -
Message 44
Posted by BoothHunter (U14812392) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Sorry Diane...I keep searching for you and find little bits - such a paper trial and most upsetting:
Yet another link for you:
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Message 45
Posted by Small Town Girl (U1483784) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Coming late to this discussion, so apologies if this has already been suggested but ....
.... is it possible that there was a death notice in the local paper which named the undertakers responsible for making the funeral/burial arrangements?
STG -
Message 46
Posted by mrsgrumbly (U14398650) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Hi Diane,
I checked the link that was posted to the find a grave site I think it was. Anyway it was Bowling in America that they had on there not the one in Bradford, so if you've not yet looked there is no need to bother. I was quite disappointed as I know some of hubby's rellies are in there but not who or where.
In the Keighley News they used to put details of interments in the family notices section of the paper even if there wasn't a formal death notice, which I've found helpful in identifying the cemetery a couple of mine were in. It just had the cemetery, the date of interment, the name and age. Don't know if the Telegraph and Argus did the same. Of course until we know what is happening with Bradford library it is not going to be possible for any of us to go and check for you. It might be worth you contacting the T&A directly to see if they can help in the circumstances.
Linda -
Message 47
Posted by glenton74 (U6667751) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Apologies if this has already been posted.
I had the problem of hunting for 5 lost children with only a period, no actual dates or Christian names. Admittedly a different area but they were brilliant at searching. Hopefully Bradford will be as helpful.
Good luck -
Message 48
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
I will have a look at the link, I have been trying to find undertakers in the area & will try & give some of them a ring, to see if any of them have been going since 1942.
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Message 49
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Yes, I have tried & they were very helpful, but no joy!
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Message 50
Posted by Diane Clarkson (U15002911) on Saturday, 29th October 2011
Sorry Diane...I keep searching for you and find little bits - such a paper trial and most upsetting:
Yet another link for you:
Μύ thanks boothHunter, I am going to try St Lukes, but after that may have a rest from it, as I am expecting my first grandchild in three weeks & very excited about it, but will keep looking at the message board,
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