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Illegitimate Grandparent
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Friday, 23rd September 2011
Can anyone give any useful advice how to proceed with my research? I am trying to trace information about a Grandparent between 1888 and 1915 and his mother.
He was born in Pancras London 1888 as Sydney Edgar Bates Caddey and does not show up on records again until his marriage in Liverpool. His mother on his BC is a Rosine/ Rosina Caddey occupation governess no name of father. The mother's address in Camden seems to have been multi occupancy (lodgings). I checked census and military recorda for 1888 to 1911 and WW1 without result.
Anyone know why he would not show on records between birth and marriage or where I could look further?
One other piece of info was mother is rumoured to have been French. I can find a Rosine Caddey aged 18 in 1881 in service in London nationality as German but this could be a false lead. -
Message 2
Posted by clematised (U3233879) on Friday, 23rd September 2011
jack,
You may not get a reply tonight as the board is about to close so please check back for a reply
Edna -
Message 3
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Friday, 23rd September 2011
Thanks Edna will do
Jack -
Message 4
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
This death fits with the age of the 1881 data, ( that is if she didn't marry )
Name: Rose Caddey
Birth Date: abt 1863
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1942
Age at Death: 79
Registration district: Paddington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 38 -
Message 5
Posted by vron (U7555028) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
ther is this baptism in paddington area which suggests that the rose death above may belong to this rose who was a married woman
Name: Beatrice Caddey
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1903
Baptism Date: 13 May 1903
Father's Name: Charles George Caddey
Mother's Name: Rose Caddey
Parish or Poor Law Union: Paddington St Augustine
Borough: Westminster -
Message 6
Posted by vron (U7555028) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
not having much luck finding him. is his the marriage in 1914 in liverpool to amy fisher
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Message 7
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
I see from his marraige cert that his father was named as Sydney Bates Caddey deceased (Carpenter) That of course could be just a cover up.
But the name Bates may well be a clue to his parentage.
The 1911 census has a Sydney Beats Cady born 1888 London and living in Liverpool. He is a builders labourer as he is a painter on his marriage cert, it may well be him.
1911
CORMOR, Mary Head Widow F 55 1856 Liverpool Lancs
CADY, Sydney Beats Boarder Single M 23 1888 Builder's Labourer London
O BYRNE, John Boarder Single M 22 1889 Furnace Stoker At London VIEW
MCQUILLIAM, James Boarder Single M 21 1890 Cabinet Maker Manchester Lancs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
22531 Reference:
RG14PN22531 RG78PN1325 RD455 SD8 ED18 SN43
Registration District:
West Derby Sub District:
South Everton Enumeration District:
18 Parish:
Everton
Address:
30 Hibbert St Liverpool
Jo -
Message 8
Posted by vron (U7555028) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
found his baptism but that doesnt help
Name: Sydney Edgar Caddy
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1888
Baptism Date: 18 May 1888
Mother's Name: Rose Caddy - dress maker
Parish or Poor Law Union: Kentish Town St Barnabas
Borough: Camden
address 47 Hawley road -
Message 9
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
I wonder if this could be him in 1901. The age is about right.
Name: Sydney Bates
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England
Civil parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Ambrose
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status: View image
Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: South Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 23
Piece: 3481
Folio: 97
Page Number: 15
Jo -
Message 10
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
1891 I keep coming back to this entry , though the name doesn't tie in with Sydney Edgar ! The Evy/Eva mentioned may be the one born Violet Evelyn Caddey born 1883 in Fulham,
Name: Seibert Caddy
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Nurse Child (Nurse)
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, London, England
Civil parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrew
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status: View image
Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Kentish Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 136
Folio: 12
Page Number: 17
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Cooke 30
Minnie Cooke 22
Henry I Cooke 10/12
Dorcus Jones 42
Oliver Jones 22
Evy Caddy 8
Seibert Caddy 3
Ada Passmore 2/12
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 136; Folio 12; Page 17; GSU roll: 6095246 -
Message 11
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
Its not really clear what institution it is. A workhouse would normally have all types, ages, sexes etc. This one, however, has about 33 boys between the ages of 8 and 14 and a matron and assistant matron. Even the enumeration details don't give anything away. The address is 29 Everton Brow.
Jo -
Message 12
Posted by vron (U7555028) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
looking on g**gle it appears it might have been a catholic boys orphanage
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Message 13
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
1891 I keep coming back to this entry , though the name doesn't tie in with Sydney Edgar ! The Evy/Eva mentioned may be the one born Violet Evelyn Caddey born 1883 in Fulham,
Name: Seibert Caddy
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Nurse Child (Nurse)
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, London, England
Civil parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrew
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status: View image
Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Kentish Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 136
Folio: 12
Page Number: 17
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Cooke 30
Minnie Cooke 22
Henry I Cooke 10/12
Dorcus Jones 42
Oliver Jones 22
Evy Caddy 8
Seibert Caddy 3
Ada Passmore 2/12
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 136; Folio 12; Page 17; GSU roll: 6095246
Μύ Hi Jan
Could well be the right one. The writing is very poor. In fact the post has two households. The one with the two children as nurse children just has the Jones's as grown ups ( mother and son) and Grace is a Sick Nurse.
Jo -
Message 14
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
Sorry should have said Dorcas, not Grace.
Nevertheless Nurse child is a 19thc term for foster child or child that had been farmed out if the mother was in dire straights.
Jo -
Message 15
Posted by clematised (U3233879) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
This thread I posted last week was about London Foundling Hospital and Nurse children
Edna -
Message 16
Posted by jc (U1902680) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
I also found the baptism before the board opened this morning..
you forgot to add that the mother Rose Caddy was a "dress maker" not governess. Dressmakers is sometimes a polite way of saying she was a lady of the night.
The Sidney Bates in the Catholic school looks interesting, which would probably infer that his father was also called Bates, possibly Edgar Bates.
If Sidney was put into a home, then its possible he was there from very early on and very likely would not have known his mother. Making up something exotic, like being foreign is not uncommon for an orphaned child to dream up. -
Message 17
Posted by dmatt47 (U13073434) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
Rosine Caddey could have been French but listed as German in 1881 as a result of the Franco-German War when the areas of Alsace and half of Lorraine were invaded by Germany. Their nationality coud have been changed until France regained the areas after the end of the First World War in 1914. Is it possible that Sydney was in France or Germany?.
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Message 18
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
Can anyone give any useful advice how to proceed with my research? I am trying to trace information about a Grandparent between 1888 and 1915 and his mother.
He was born in Pancras London 1888 as Sydney Edgar Bates Caddey and does not show up on records again until his marriage in Liverpool. His mother on his BC is a Rosine/ Rosina Caddey occupation governess no name of father. The mother's address in Camden seems to have been multi occupancy (lodgings). I checked census and military recorda for 1888 to 1911 and WW1 without result.
Anyone know why he would not show on records between birth and marriage or where I could look further?
One other piece of info was mother is rumoured to have been French. I can find a Rosine Caddey aged 18 in 1881 in service in London nationality as German but this could be a false lead. Μύ Hello everyone,
thanks for the replies the baptism information and the information about Everton is interesting as we wondered how or why he ended up in Liverpool and he is supposed to have said he was brought up in a home. Everton is also interesting s they lived in that area and there is a Sydney Eggers Bates linked to Liverpool via his father but that maybe stretching cioincidence possibly too far.
I have a copy of the birth cert DOB 18th January 1888 and the Mother's name is definitely Rosine or Rosina and the occupation given is Governess, if she was a dress maker or something less salubrious she wouldn't say she was a Governess on the birth cert would she? The address given at birth was 15 Kelly Pancras.
Yes he did marry Amy Fisher in 1914 and was a dockyard painter. His son also Sydney Caddey never knew his grandmother so unlikely teh Rose Caddey that was found is any relative. -
Message 19
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
Hi,
Thanks for this as I considered this after watching JKR on WDYTYA there is no information in the family about him being abroad but I thought maybe his mother might have returned explaining why she disappeared from records. The family always thought he was brought up in a home in Britain but his mother some how kept in touch as he always said she was very clever and spoke many languages but travelled a lot. Of course that could be a fantasy. -
Message 20
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
I also found the baptism before the board opened this morning..
you forgot to add that the mother Rose Caddy was a "dress maker" not governess. Dressmakers is sometimes a polite way of saying she was a lady of the night.
The Sidney Bates in the Catholic school looks interesting, which would probably infer that his father was also called Bates, possibly Edgar Bates.
If Sidney was put into a home, then its possible he was there from very early on and very likely would not have known his mother. Making up something exotic, like being foreign is not uncommon for an orphaned child to dream up.Μύ Hi,
possibly the same but the BC definitely has her as a Governess. Of course she may have come down n the worls as a result of the pregnancy. I have given some information in anothr post about possible links to Liverpool but they are pushing the coincidence a bit. -
Message 21
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
People lied you know to make their profession more acceptable. Also Rosina was sometimes spelt as Rose as it is a variant of the name and officials were keen to make it as easy as possible. I would not be too keen to cling to the information given on the birth cert as being really accurate.
If you have the inclination, it may be worth sending for the BC of Violet Caddey in 1883. She may well be a sibling of Sydneys'. There does not appear to be a bpatism for her on line regrettably.
Jo -
Message 22
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
Hi Jo
thanks yes I know they lie, see earlier replies but Governess to 'dressmaker' is a long way apart! Still you could be right. and there are no other links to Evy or Seibert so it may be worthwhile looking at her BC.
Thanks
Jack -
Message 23
Posted by jc (U1902680) on Sunday, 25th September 2011
Hi Jack
Its very easy to not give the complete truth when registering a child (or marriage for that matter). But the baptism might be another story though! Telling untruths to a man of the church might have been too much for her.
Many rectors would also visit or be called up to ensure that all the illigitmate children were baptised and would often visit "known" poor areas to round them up, I've seen pages of them all together where the rector would get the women from single parent lodgings or lying in hospitals and do them all together.
If she was indeed a governess, I would suspect she lost her job after having the baby and took in dressmaking or other ways of making a living... no social benefits available then like there are no adays.
A couple of other sources you could try, are parish relief for the times when she couldn't work and also bastardy bonds, she may have tried to get the father to help out.
BTW, she did indeed call herself Rose on the Baptism entry for Sidney Edgar Caddy, best not dismiss the name so easily as you have so little to go on, not everything we come across fits neatly into the boxes we would like them to. -
Message 24
Posted by PhyllisDoris (U2224329) on Sunday, 25th September 2011
Perhaps it is just a coincidence, but the only entry in the GRO index for a Rosine Caddey, is a birth registered in December Q of 1862 (in Brighton district). This child would have been 18 on census night in 1881.
Caddey, as an English surname seems to occur mainly in Dorset and Somerset in the 19th century. It doesn't appear to be French or German. -
Message 25
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Sunday, 25th September 2011
Hello everyone
thank you for your help I think checking on Violet and Sydney Bates are worthwhile, though there are quite a few Sydney Bates born London 1888 to 1889. I have asked Liverpool Archives how I can access the White Rock Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ records and will get a copy of Violet's BC.
I know Caddey was not French or German so the old fellow could have been lying or mistaken. There are also quite a lot of Rose/ Roseanne etc Caddeys to check on but maybe one of the avenues mentioned will throw more light on him.
Thanks again
Jack. -
Message 26
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Monday, 26th September 2011
Liverpool Archives got back to me. They have no records on the inmates of White Rock home, their records relate to action taken against the Matron for ill treatment and malnutrition of the boys in her care. Obviously a bad place to be in even.
Jack -
Message 27
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Monday, 17th October 2011
Jo
BC received and Evy was Syd's sister. Another avenue to follow
Jack -
Message 28
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Monday, 17th October 2011
Well done
Sometimes its worth buying the certs as it gives you different avenues to follow which could unearth untold information.
Jo -
Message 29
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Wednesday, 19th October 2011
Jo
yes this is a sister we never knew of. It also leads me to strongly believe the mother is the german servant girl Roseanne Caddey shown on the 1881 census for London. I looked at the original entry and I am convinced the entry says Rosine and not Roseanne. This is the only Rosine Caddey spelt exactly as on both birth certs I can find any trace of on ancestry..
Evy was born the Bath House Fulham Palace Road which I thought may mean work house but a search of the poor law records turned up nothing. Guess this means I'm at a dead end until the 1911 census is fully searchable.
Jack -
Message 30
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Wednesday, 19th October 2011
1911 is fully searchable. Just ask.
Jo -
Message 31
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Wednesday, 19th October 2011
Jo
I thought ou had to go via the summary books, which is taking me some time especially when the ancestors could be in lodging? The people I was looking for were Violet Evelyn (Evy) Jessie Caddey born 1883 Fulham and a long shot any Rosine Caddey born abt 1863.
I have another family I am researching named Carr that lived in Birkenhead in 1891 but seem to have moved address but probably still that area so if you can give me a pointer as to how to search the 1911 census I would be grateful thanks
Jack -
Message 32
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Wednesday, 19th October 2011
Jack
The 1911 census is on Find My Past website and also on the site below
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Message 33
Posted by vron (U7555028) on Wednesday, 19th October 2011
POSS EVY DEATH
Name: Evelyn Caddey
Birth Date: abt 1883
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1953
Age at Death: 70
Registration district: Paddington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5d
Page: 203
worth getting death cert to see what info is on it?? it would appear she never married -
Message 34
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Wednesday, 19th October 2011
I have actually looked for Evelyn and Rosina in 1911 with no luck, I'm afraid.
Sorry
Jo -
Message 35
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Wednesday, 19th October 2011
Jo
thanks for trying. I did find an Evelyn Caddey travelling from Berlin {German connection again) to Buernos Aries in 1908 in the passenger revords. Probably not her but nice to fantasise about well travelled relatives.
You coudn't try a Michael Joseph Carr born 1900 Birkenhead mother Emily R Carr born South America for me could you. The husband is Michael Joseph Carr born Liverpool occupation wheelwright could you. I have them in the 1901 census living at 20 The Woodlands Birkenhead but can not find them in 1911? Funny enough their neighbours in 1901 had three childen born in Peru and Chile.
Jack -
Message 36
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Thursday, 20th October 2011
There is nothing that I can find in the 1911 census for the Carr family. Neither is there any sign of them on the passenger lists leaving the UK between 1901 and 1911.
Sorry. I don't seem to be having much luck.
Jo -
Message 37
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Thursday, 20th October 2011
Jo
thanks for looking I thought it was just me. I know that the youngest son married in 1919 (my wife's grandfather) I suppose it's entirely possible they went to wherever Emily originated from for a short time or possibly the census is incomplete.
Thanks again
Jack -
Message 38
Posted by Jowin1 (U1940449) on Thursday, 20th October 2011
I looked on the passeneger lists as the Ancestry entry has Emily born South America but it is transcribed as United States. How very dare the transcriber put the two as one.
Jo -
Message 39
Posted by jack (U14987471) on Thursday, 20th October 2011
Jo
yes I saw that. On an earlier entry for 1891 they had transcribed it as Pamerica but that has been changed to S America - Rosario, now. If you noticed in 1901 their neighbours the Swains had three children born Peru and Chile which is coincidental. Emily though I am fairly certain from the BMD marriage record was Greening before she married. The S America Genealogy website had a Greening family living in Sant Fe (which includes Rosario) Argentina in 1860's but no record of an Emily. I am waiting certificates to confirm if she is from this family.
Thanks again
Jack
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