This discussion has been closed.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Friday, 3rd September 2010
My great nan's parents DOROTHY MAUD BARTLETT and JAMES WILLIAM SEARLE, married in Kentish Town in 1918. I am struggling to research James William Searle. He is down as 24 years old, meaning he was born in 1894, or 1893 depending on his birthday.
Now on my great nan's marriage cert, her fathers name is down as WILLIAM JAMES SEARLE, the same name is on Dorothy's death cert as she is down as being the widow of William James Searle. I cannot research the husband James/William as I cannot find a birth. James' father was called Joseph William Searle on James & Dorothy's wedding certificate. I have a copy of this, as well as Dorothy's death cert so it is the correct family, I just cannot find this man! I would be grateful fr any help on this family. They have all passed away so I cannot ask my great nan. Many thanks in advance.
Vicki
I think you made a typo, Dorothy's father was Joseph and James W's father was named after his father James W (I checked against the 1918 LMA parish records on Ancestry)
1911
SEARLE JAMES WILLIAM M 1870 41 St Pancras London carman
SEARLE CHARLES HENRY M 1900 11 St Pancras London
HOUSEHOLD SEARLE CLARA F 1904 7 St Pancras London
HOUSEHOLD SEARLE LOUISE F 1870 41 St Pancras London
James may have already joined the navy by 1911, which would explain why he is difficult to find
1901
St Pancras
Jasper !!! Searle 31 carman Whitechapel
Louise Searle 31 Brompton
Lizzie Searle 9 Camden
Eva Searle 7 Cambden
Jasper Searle 5 <<<<< think this is James William/William James Camden
Henry Searle 1 Cambden
birth
Name: James William Searle
Year of Registration: 1895
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Pancras (1837-1901)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 1
marriage
Name: James William Searle - carman
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Spouse Name: Louisa Rother
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 22 Nov 1891
Parish: Holy Trinity, Haverstock Hill
County: Middlesex
Borough: Camden
Father Name: James Searle - carman
Spouse Father Name: William Rother tailor
his address 42 Torbay Street
her address 19 Victoria Road
witnesses
Alfred Davy
Mary Davy
other children
Name: Elizabeth Searle
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 24 Apr 1892
Father's Name: James Searle
Mother's Name: Louisa Searle
Parish: Holy Trinity, Haverstock Hill
Borough: Camden
1 Harley Street
fathers occupation Carman
Name: Eva Louisa Searle
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 11 Jan 1894
Father's Name: James William Searle
Mother's Name: Louisa Searle
Parish: St Thomas, Agar Town
Borough: Camden
fathers occupation Carman
143 Kings Road
Name: Clara Searle
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 27 Aug 1903
Father's Name: James William Searle
Mother's Name: Louisa Searle
Parish: St Mark, Regent's Park
Borough: Camden
address 22 Wellington St
fathers occupation Carman
someone on Ancestry has this family on their tree, but they've got stuck with "JASPA" and have assigned him to the wrong parents and assumed a birth for him as Josiah. They haven't found the marriage for "Jaspa" and Louisa or the baptisms of the children giving the father's name as James William!
so BEWARE!
1891 St Pancras
Charles Baldwin 42
Sarah Baldwin 40
William Baldwin 12
James W Searle 21 lodger brewers drayman (carm) Whitechapel
Frederick Warrington 19
think this is possibly him in 1871
Name: James William Searle
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James Seaile
Mother's Name: Sarah Ann Searle
Gender: Male
Where born: Mill End, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St Pancras
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Kentish Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 34
Household schedule number: 85
Household Members: Name Age
James Seaile 26 fishmonger (should say Searle)
Sarah Ann Searle 23
James William Searle 1
this looks like the JW snr's death
Name: James W Searle
Death Registration Month/Year: 1936
Age at death (estimated): 66
Registration district: Pancras
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b
Page: 100
and taken from Probate calendars
Searle- James William of 41 Hawley road, Kentish Town Middx
died 2 Sept 1936 at 199 Dartmouth Park Hill Middlesex
probate-London 28 January 1937 to Percy George Sillence Stonemason and William Joseph Dillingham yard foreman
Effects Β£802 6s 11d
This is all a bit confusing. I think Dorothy Maud Bartlett was baptised on 18/12/1895 at St Mary the Virgin, Primrose Hill, Camden. Her parents are named as Joseph & Elizabeth, and Joseph was a Carpenter.
There is an image of the Parish Register for her marriage on August 10th 1918 at St Martins, Kentish Town. On this record James William Searle, Sailor, 24, marries Dorothy Maud Bartlett Spinster, 23. Their parents are stated as James William Searle, Carman, and Joseph Bartlett, Carpenter. The witnesses were Joseph Henry Bartlett [I think her brother, b 1887], Joseph Bartlett - maybe her father - and Amy Turvey. If on the marriage certificate you have James' father is given as Joseph William Searle, then there is a big discrepancy in the records.
I was doing this around midnight, and have not had a chance to follow it up, but someone else probably will. When did Dorothy die? If she is stated as the widow of William James then he must have died previously. I did not find James William in 1911, but if he was a sailor he could have been away - or maybe I missed him.
The above looks better than my offering but here goes anyway:
1901 census:
Sinbury Lane, Walton on Thames, Surrey
Joseph Searle 45 Labourer born Walton on Thames
Susan Searle 42 born Devonshire
Eliza J Searle 19 born Kingston on Thames
Joseph H Searle 17 point turner born Gravesend Kent
Bessia A Searle 15 born Gravesend Kent
Lucy A Searle 10 born Walton on Thames
Alfred Searle 8 born W.O.T
William J Searle 5 born W.O.T<<<<<
Rosina A M Searle 3 born W.O.T.
Doris M Searle 1 born W.O.T
William H Searle 2m [grandson]born Fulham
Marriage of Joseph Searle and Susan Smith 1880 Chertsey, Surrey Q4 2a/59
In 1911 census the family are living in Chertsey.
Looking at the image for James William Searle, 1911, you quote in St Pancras is very interesting. There are 3 other children crossed out as 'Away'.
Elizabeth, 19, Domestic.
Eva Louise, 17, Domestic.
Jas Wm, 15, "In Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ".
This could well be the family in 1901 at 34, Camera Square, Chelsea:
James, 30, General Labourer.
Elizabeth, 31.
James, 7, "Deaf & Dumb".
Frederick, 4.
Elizabeth, 9.
I wonder though if someone deaf & dumb could become a sailor.
thanks for looking at the image for 1911 Oxhey...
that comfirms I found the right family in message 2 if James, Elizabeth and Eva Louise are crossed out and the other children I found are there....
Oxhey I found the correct 1901 census earlier, see message 2. Don't think your one in Chelsea is correct
Crusader, I first went down the Walton on Thames route but it didn't look right to me
this is the only Searle as Pupil or Inmate in 1911 that fits, only problem is, its in Leicestershire which is unexpected
INSTITUTION SEARLE JAMES M 1897 14 Market Bosworth Leicestershire
Re message 7:
The James Searle in Leicestershire is a Tailors apprentice/school inmate and born Eastbourne, Sussex.
Jo
thanks Jo... knew it was an outside chance.
Think he is probably already in the Navy as a cadet or something.
, in reply to message 2.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Saturday, 4th September 2010
Hi there! As far as I was aware, I thought James William Searle's father had the same name as him, which was what I thought I had discovered when I first began my tree.
I have since purchased the wedding certificate for James William Searle and Dorothy Maud Bartlett and James' father is ALSO named as Joseph. I knew Dorothy's father is Joseph as I have researched the Bartlett's back from Joseph. This was the reason why I was confused! I have not read everyone's replies yet so thank you if you have contributed so far your time helping me is very much appreciated!
, in reply to message 3.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Saturday, 4th September 2010
Dorothy passed away in 1944, and as I said the death certificate said she is the widow of a William James Searle. Very confusing! On my great nan's marriage certificate from 1942, her father is also down as William James Searle, and he is already stated as deceased, so he has passed away before 1942 to my knowledge.
Hi again Vicki,
are you saying what is written on the marriage certificate you received is different to what is in the parish records below? I have checked the scanned image and it definitely says James William
Name: Dorothy Maud Bartlett
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1895
Spouse Name: James William Searle
Spouse Age: 24
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 10 Aug 1918
Parish: St Martin, Kentish Town
County: Middlesex
Borough: Camden
Father Name: Joseph Bartlett - carpenter
Spouse Father Name: James William Searle - carman
both give address as 25 Carlton St
witnesses
Joseph Henry Bartlett
Joseph Barlett
Amy Turvey
, in reply to message 12.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Saturday, 4th September 2010
Yes, It clearly says Joseph which is what confused me, as up to that point I thought James William's father had the same name as him! I bought the certificate from the GRO so I am confused why they are different. Everything else reads the same though, Dorothy's father, witnesses, etc.
, in reply to message 13.
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Saturday, 4th September 2010
He may simply have preferred to use them in the opposite order! My daughter was christened X Y because it's easier to say (my own name wasn't!) but she has always been known as Y so she prefers to give her name as Y X
Its pretty clear on the parish records that James W's father was also James W.
It has been known for the GRO to copy the wrong info down, when handwriting a cert copy.
I would contact the GRO and tell them that you have seen the LMA parish records and the father's name is James W not Joseph, could they double check.
, in reply to message 15.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Sunday, 5th September 2010
Thanks I will do. Im a bit annoyed I bought it for the fathers name, only for it to have the wrong name on it!
, in reply to message 16.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Sunday, 5th September 2010
Is there any way of searching within the family tree forum for threads that already exist and have the same surname I am looking for? I can only see a search box at the top of the page but it searches the whole of Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ and I only want to search this forum. I don't know if I have completely missed a search option somewhere, I dont know where else to look.
there is no way of searching for threads that may contain one of the surnames you are looking for.
I've been using the board since it started and I can generally remember if there has query on a name (not on the surname lists though!)
The other problem we have is that we have no way of notifying another member that there is a possible link which makes it nigh on impossible on this board to make communication with a possible family member.
Other forums cater for such communications and search facility.
, in reply to message 18.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Sunday, 5th September 2010
Thanks jc, I thought I was being stupid because I couldn't find anything!
, in reply to message 3.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Sunday, 5th September 2010
Where would I find information on James William Searle jr being a sailor? Would there be anywhere I could find navy records?
Navy records are held at the National Archives
I had a quick search yesterday but didn't see anything that was available online. Problem is we don't know if he was an RN or merchant seaman.
I think Edna has some links for merchant seamen on her useful links list
, in reply to message 21.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Tuesday, 4th January 2011
Sorry to crop up an old thread, but where will I find the links to the seamen? I cannot find Edna's thread on here. Many thanks! I am desperate to find out James William Searle
My Useful Websites List
We do now have a search box for the board but it does not go back a long way
We have an A to Z of names though they are four seperate lists so click on the one you want to check
Edna
, in reply to message 23.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Tuesday, 4th January 2011
Many thanks Edna you are an absolute star! I hope I can find him, I know nothing about him and I just can't find him anywhere, seems to be quite a lot of James William Searle's about in the same period. I have a window of between 1924 and 1942 where he has deceased at some point, and I know he was a sailor. Other than that I know nothing! x
mariners-request@rootsweb.com
If you join Mariners List from this link and just copy and paste into your e mail then write subscribe you can then ask aboiut mariners there as they are so helpful
Edna
, in reply to message 25.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Wednesday, 5th January 2011
I have just discovered in 1919 he is a baker! Oh well he obviously wasnt a sailor for long.
, in reply to message 26.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Wednesday, 26th January 2011
I have just received my great nan's birth certificate today. Her father is stated as James William Searle, and his occupation is down as wine merchant's carman. I am unsure if a carman is a driver, or a mechanical type job? They live at 35 Charlton Street (which I imagine must be Carlton Street?)
, in reply to message 27.
Posted by clematised (U3233879) on Wednesday, 26th January 2011
you are right about a Carman being a driver, check out these jobs
Edna
, in reply to message 28.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Wednesday, 26th January 2011
Thanks Edna! Am still stuck though with how to find out when he died! It is very annoying as I know he has died between 1924 and 1942, I just dont know when or how. I dont mind ordering a death certificate but Ive no idea which one he is. On freebmd there are a few listed for London but the only one on there is his father.
, in reply to message 29.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Wednesday, 26th January 2011
That should have said his father is the only one listed for London in between them years. There are none listed for Middlesex (where I know his daughter and wife lived in 1942 due to my great nan's certificate)
, in reply to message 30.
Posted by clematised (U3233879) on Wednesday, 26th January 2011
England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about James W Searle
Name: James W Searle
Death Registration Month/Year: 1936
Age at death (estimated): 66
Registration district: Pancras
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b
Page: 100
Do you know who this one is??
Edna
, in reply to message 31.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Wednesday, 26th January 2011
That's his father, who was born in 1870 The only james william searle I could find
, in reply to message 32.
Posted by clematised (U3233879) on Wednesday, 26th January 2011
check out this link as I put in the name and got partial matches for James William Searle and 153 pages came up, but I dont want to go through all of those but you might want to
Edna
, in reply to message 33.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Wednesday, 26th January 2011
Filtered it down for the years that i am after and no joy
Do you know of any way I may be able to find out where his wife was buried? I have a date of death for her, she died in Edgware. I am just thinking she may be buried with him, or she may have a plaque with his details on? Clutching at straws here ha ha.
, in reply to message 34.
Posted by clematised (U3233879) on Wednesday, 26th January 2011
Jowin a member here has the National Burial Index, you could put up a message for her asking if she is in it giving full death details and full name.
That list I gave you never works cut down it is best searcing through just in case something clicks, when you start refining to particulars it goes bonkers.
Edna
, in reply to message 35.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Wednesday, 26th January 2011
Thanks Edna, will hunt Jowin down and search through them results as long as my eyes will let me
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Friday, 15th April 2011
I am struggling to research a death date for James William Searle's wife Louisa. She was born in 1870 but cannot seem to find any dates on bmd that would match her? I appreciate any help
Is this her ?
Name: Louisa Searle
Death Registration Month/Year: 1934
Age at death (estimated): 63
Registration district: Islington
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 1b
Page: 293
View original image
Save This Record
Attach this record to a person in your tree as a source record, or save for later evaluation.
Save
, in reply to message 38.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Friday, 15th April 2011
Yeah, that could be her! As far as I was aware they lived in the St Pancras area. Her husband died in 1936 in St Pancras. But it is probably very likely her. Thanks a lot!
, in reply to message 2.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Saturday, 16th April 2011
would anyone be able to very kindly find more information for me on this census, the address for where they are living at the time?
1911
SEARLE JAMES WILLIAM M 1870 41 St Pancras London carman
SEARLE CHARLES HENRY M 1900 11 St Pancras London
HOUSEHOLD SEARLE CLARA F 1904 7 St Pancras London
HOUSEHOLD SEARLE LOUISE F 1870 41 St Pancras London
1911
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEARLE, James William Head Married
20 years M 41 1870 Carman Railway Whitechapel
SEARLE, Louise Wife Married
20 years F 41 1870 None London Chelsea
SEARLE, Charles Henry Son Single M 11 1900 None School Camden Town SEARLE, Clara Daughter Single F 7 1904 None School Camden Town
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
672 Reference:
RG14PN672 RG78PN23 RD9 SD1 ED21 SN404
Registration District:
St Pancras Sub District:
West St Pancras Enumeration District:
21 Parish:
St Pancras
Address:
22 Wellington St N W County:
London
5 children in all - all living.
The first three children have been crossed outa and marked as 'away' so not included in the transcription.
Jo
The three missing children are:
Elizabeth Searle 19 Single Domestic Servant
Eva? Louise Searle 17 Single Domestic Servant
James Wm Searle 15 In Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ
All born Camden Town
Jo
, in reply to message 42.
Posted by Bashfuljan157 (U5893214) on Saturday, 16th April 2011
It is Eva Louisa Jo
Births Mar 1894 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Searle Eva Louisa Pancras 1b 148
, in reply to message 42.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Sunday, 17th April 2011
Thank you Jo, always appreciate your input! I havent got access to ancestry anymore and have just came across all my family history files after a long house move! x
, in reply to message 33.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Tuesday, 11th October 2011
Is there can register offices search by spouses for a death certificate? It's just that I am struggling to find this James William Searle still and his wife Dorothy is a widow when she died in 1944, and I am presuming she is the one who will have registered the death.
, in reply to message 45.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Wednesday, 19th October 2011
bump can anyone help? x
, in reply to message 46.
Posted by Vicki Wrathmall (U14318590) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
Bump
, in reply to message 47.
Posted by clematised (U3233879) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
Deaths Mar 1906 (>99%)
Searle James William 62 Bradford 9b 39 Scan available - click to view
This is the only death I can find but it is in Bradford Yorkshire
Edna
, in reply to message 45.
Posted by Small Town Girl (U1483784) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
The short answer is No, registrar's can't find a death based on a spouse's name.
Also, it doesn't necessarily follow that a wife/widow would be the one who registers the death of her husband. My mother didn't register my father's death, my brother did.
STG
, in reply to message 49.
Posted by Small Town Girl (U1483784) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
Have we had this one before ?
Deaths Sep 1943 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Searle William J 49 Hackney 1b 255
STG
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