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Agincourt to be a major new film!
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
I had to rub my eyes - Americans making a film about a brilliant English victory (with a Welsh king!)?
Michael Mann, director of 1995's action-packed 'Heat' (De Niro, Kilmer and Pacino) has officially signed on with an independent company to make an epic based upon "Sharpe's" English author Bernard Cornwell's classic novel, centering on an ace archer, Nicholas Hook, who fights for King Henry V.
Brad Pitt has been whispered as starring, but nothing's definite yet. A big name though is essential in recouping the studio's capital?
And what of that other 'English' film in pre-production- "1066"? Based upon English author Helen Hollick's novels with English director Robin Jacob, this is possibly another great film due in our cinema's soon?
The recent 'Robin Hood' by Ridley Scott should, by all accounts, have thrilled us, but we got (in my view) a typically damp fizzle of a British banger on a rainy Nov 5th?
What do we want from these films? What should we expect from such films? -
Message 2
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
I expect that the Americans will win the battles of Hastings and Agincourt. Historical accuracy will be the first casualty, and it will be another 'Braveheart' and about as truthful. -
Message 3
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
Surely no-one in their right minds expects "historical accuracy" in a film like this?
It's not about history.
It's about money, and. peripherally, Oscars. -
Message 4
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
To be honest, I'm surprised Hastings hasn't been covered before. May mum's old copy of Georgette Heyer's 'The Conqueror' claims on the front cover that it was now a major film, but I can't find any other evidence! It will be interesting to see which viewpoint they take in terms of heroes/villains etc - anyone familiar with the books?
A pity Agincourt's being trotted out again, but then Hal did have a good publicist in Shakespeare! I'd rather see Edward III getting a look in for a change.
Personally I thought 'Robin Hood' was good, despite the historical liberties and the hero's bizarre accent. Also liked 'Ironclad', the recent British film about the Siege of Rochester Castle, despite (again) the numerous liberties taken with history.
I don't expect much in the way of accuracy, but one can always hope. -
Message 5
Posted by Patrick Wallace (U196685) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
No doubt we have to take it as read that the dastardly French will be played by suave or effete English actors, even if the dialogue might have moved on from the alleged Hollywood classic "War! War! War! That's all you think about, Dick Plantagenet!"
Will anyone have the sense to do a spoiler re-release of the Olivier "Henry V"? -
Message 6
Posted by glen berro (U8860283) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
I expect that the Americans will win the battles of Hastings and Agincourt. Historical accuracy will be the first casualty, and it will be another 'Braveheart' and about as truthful.Ìý
I suppose they might get round this by allowing the Welsh to win Agincourt and portraying the the English at Hastings as if they were just off the boat from Germany. -
Message 7
Posted by Laura (U14532132) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
I am an American who's great great many times over are Robert the Bruce, Edward I, Edward II and Edward III, William I, Alfred the Great and all the Saxon Kings, Vikings, Normans,Scot Kingsand all the lines of Queen Elizabeth II , She and I are in fact just 3 generations apart. She is my 17th cousin 3 times removed. Yes, I have had it checked by geneaologists and they say I am correct. I correct all the errors in Braveheart everytime I watch it with my children. They just shake their heads. I want so badly for a proper film to be made about the true history of U.K. battles. Who will do such a thing? I can understand that they need to use a bit of artistic license to spice it up a bit but there are enough questions about things that may have or have not happened that they can use that are at least not out and out lies. I like to catch history buffs with the first untruth in Braveheart. Now I am talking about Americans. It is in the very beginning when The Robert the Bruce is introducing the story and he calls Edward I Longshanks a Pagan. He was in fact a Christian, as were all Norman Kings from Rollo (although he held onto his pagan roots as well)on. I seriously doubt an American film will depict a Brittish battle correctly.
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Message 8
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
Dear Laura,
May I ask you why you make your children watch the historically incorrect "Braveheart"?
Also why do the powerful and frightening "Tea Party Movement" have so much power when they wish to pay no taxes yet weild power? The real "Tea Party" was all about NO taxation without representation, ergo, if you don't pay taxes you don't get a vote!
However finally, do you realize just how scared we Europeans are about the lack of knowledge an average American has about "History"? History will keep repeating itself, like the Wall Street Crash! Some American once said that "war was nature's way of teaching American's Geography".
Apart from your obvious insight and knowledge, please give me some reason to hope that Americans don't all believe in what strange historical fairy tales Hollywood has to tell them? Please!
Best Wishes, Minette.
p.s.
Bet you have never heard of Wales. Most of your Founding Fathers came from this small country, as did your first Presidents. And yet everyone knows about Scotland, golf and Whiskey; Ireland, Leprechauns and Whiskey; Wales, power politics and Merlin the real Magician from Caermarthan, the place of Merlin circa C6th century. -
Message 9
Posted by marchog_du_aka_Stoggler (U14998493) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
Be fair Minette (or should that be chwarae teg - fair play, a concept the Welsh seem to take some stock in) - that all sounds like an attack on Laura just for being American.
Laura did not say she "makes" her children watch Braveheart, merely that she points out the historical inaccuracies in the film to her children.
Why the mention (and critisism) of the Tea Party Movement when Laura makes no mention of them at all in her post.
Are we Europeans really "scared" at Americans' perceived lack of knowledge of history? There are plenty of British people who are ignorant of history too, should we be scared of them too?
And your mention of the Wall Street Crash and the lessons forgotten recently were forgotten on both sides of the Atlantic - don't forget that the City of London and British institutions benefitted from the loosening of regulations by the British governments over the last couple of decades as much as any deregulation from the US government.
Apart from your obvious insight and knowledge, please give me some reason to hope that Americans don't all believe in what strange historical fairy tales Hollywood has to tell them? Please! Ìý
Surely Laura's post is enough to offer hope that Americans don't all believe in what strange historical fairy tales Hollywood has to tell them. A clearly erudite person posts that she dispairs at historical inaccuracies in films and you somehow blame her for all the historical inaccuracies in films!
Depicting all Americans as ignorant is crass, arrogant and just rude. And expecting historical accuracy from an industry that makes entertainment (and not historical documentaries) is expecting a little too much.
Bet you have never heard of Wales. Ìý
Why this attack? An accusation of ignorance of someone based on their nationality.
Merlin the real Magician from CaermarthanÌý
Is this a joke? Perhaps you see the Â鶹ԼÅÄ series as historically accurate...
Carmarthen (to use it's correct English spelling - I hope you're not showing a lack of knowledge of Wales and Welsh - does that make you American if it does...?) or Caerfyrddin (Welsh name) is in all likelihood named after some magician (right, there were really was a magician called Merlin!), but those legends arose later. -
Message 10
Posted by marchog_du_aka_Stoggler (U14998493) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
or Caerfyrddin (Welsh name) is in all likelihood named after some magician Ìý
I meant "is in all likelihood NOT named after some magician -
Message 11
Posted by Patrick Wallace (U196685) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
I want so badly for a proper film to be made about the true history of U.K. battles. Who will do such a thing? Ìý
The trouble is that the really true history of a lot of battles is one of sheer chance, mixed with all sorts of ineptitudes and muddles. Some of our own past movies about famous events tend to present a highly bowdlerised view.
But I agree, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to get a bit closer to the complexities of how the people involved thought and felt about it all.
Why not something about Simon de Montfort and all that, by the way? -
Message 12
Posted by glen berro (U8860283) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
Why would Simon de Montfort be treated sympathetically by anyone?
I may be wrong (as so often), but I had him listed as a greedy, selfish opportunist who sought a little support from the middle class in England for his own aggrandisement, which earned him no support from the barons and had no appeal to the vast majority in the country. -
Message 13
Posted by Hugh Mosby-Joaquin (U14258131) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
"I am an American who's great great many times over are Robert the Bruce,"
You and 200,000,000 others!
However, you are right to pour scorn over 'Braveheart' as being a piece of history. It was no more than an entertaining historical romp, I'd have to watch it again (perhaps not!) to see the reference you make regarding Robert Bruce calling Edward Longshanks a pagan; since the man went on a crusade to the holy land, it's more likely, as you point out, that he was a christian. Anyway, Bruce was nowhere near the battle of Stirling, and almost certainly was not siding with the British.
I enjoyed the battles in the movie, however.
And I accept that American actors (particularly Mel Gibson) have as many problems distinguishing Scottish and Irish accents, as I would between voices from Texas and Tennesee! -
Message 14
Posted by Laura (U14532132) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
Dear Minette,
I enjoyed your post. I am very aware of my Welch roots. My grandmother was Welch and my grandfather Scottish. Ever since I can remember I was told I was related to Mary Queen of Scots so I read all I could which wasn't much until I got to college. When my great Uncle Alfred died he was working with a geneaologist. I was only 14 so didn't inherit all the work he'd had done and it got lost over the years.
I really don't make my kids watch Braveheart. There are 4 of them aged 22 through28 and they bring it family get togethers to irk me. It is our Thanksgiving day today so I expect it will come out any second. Where is Stirling Bridge? I know that Edward I was hard on the Scottish but he was good for the English. I only recently found out that he probably had a lisp. Somthing new for this year to mention. I graduated university in 1980 after a degree in the area of law. Now some 30 odd years later I am back at university studying Medieval History. My oldest is fascinated with the history of the U.K. especially battles. I give him all the stuff I have.
Oh, I have been studying Welch language to understand the Celtic pronounciations for all of the ancestors I run across(hundreds) in my research with Welch names that at first befuddled me completely. I have a good friend in Wales who I have corresponded with for nearly 10 years who finally sid I should just study myself instead of asking him. Actually I can call him free now days 10 years ago he spent huge amounts of money to call me and help me. He is a Naval Battle buff and has lots of fine information. I have told him of this message board but now he has retired and claims to be too busy.
Now for our Tea Party. They are not a party of people who don't want to pay taxes. They just want our Stupid Obama to stop spending so much money. Our National debt just his 15 trillion. TRILLION. Our conservative Congress who is in charge of the money just took over lst autumn. they will not let the liberal Senate raise taxes. We are still in a terrible recession and raising taxes in a recession is never right. Obama even said so last autumn when congress wouldn't let him raise taxes and he took the credit. Now he wants to get re-elected and he needs his liberal base to think he is doing what they want. So the fight gos on. He won't get re-elected in this economy. All the polls show that even a Candidate ABO can beat him. (Any But Obama) It is the Occupy Wall Street gang who don't want to pay taxes. They want the rich people to have to people to support them. Many of the groups out there protesting are Socialist parties and Nazi parties. We let all protest even though I would rather see some of them disappeared by my magic ancestors. I found Odin was a great grandfather way, way back. I never realized he was a real person that they made a God.
So much to learn. I read about every post here quite often. Ilove this message board.
Thank you for you reply,
Laura -
Message 15
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 25th November 2011
I have to agree with Urn in message 3.
Anyone who watches these films expecting historical accuracy probably deserve to be disappointed. And the usual claim that these films are "based" on fact does not mean that they will be true to history down to the last detail. -
Message 16
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Friday, 25th November 2011
To be honest, I'm surprised Hastings hasn't been covered before. My mum's old copy of Georgette Heyer's 'The Conqueror' claims on the front cover that it was now a major film, but I can't find any other evidence! Ìý
Unless Hollywood used Heyer's novel as the basis - slightly adapted - of the Howard Hughes epic 'The Conqueror' in 1955?
All they'd have to do was replace William of Normandy with Genghis Khan and change the geography around a little. In Cinemascope, and with John Wayne as Genghis, it probably made lots of money. -
Message 17
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Friday, 25th November 2011
Excellent post marchog-du Message 9.
It exposes the crassness of casual anti-Americanism. And the same applies, of course, for all such sweeping bigotries. -
Message 18
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Friday, 25th November 2011
If you can seriously claim that one of your ancestors was Odin,and another was Mary, Queen of Scots, then you are using someone's ready-made family tree! The first rule of Family History is never to believe anything until you have clear documentary evidence and have checked it for yourself.
Also, the word for things connected with the Principality is usually spelt 'Welsh' wih an 's' -
Message 19
Posted by Laura (U14532132) on Friday, 25th November 2011
Dear Raundsgirl,
Sorry for the typographical errors. There were many in my post. I had my new grand daughter next to me asleep and my two grandsons begging for my attention. They are used to being cousins themselves now and sharing me but a delicate little girl is a different subject. I have had verification through William the Conqueor and it it easy to keep going as I am only doig Grand parents. Common sense tells us that your father's father is your grandfather and his father is your great grandfather and his father is your great , great grandfather etc and on it goes up the line. I have been doing this research for over a decade now and only strayed from grandparents to see how I was related to Mary Queen of Scots who is definately a cousin through one branch and an aunt through another. When I I's tree, I realized we had the exact same ancestors. I figured out she is my 17th cousin 3 times removed. I did spend a lot for a geneaologist firm who just told me what I did was correct. Thank you for explaining about the Principaly rule. You have a lot of different grammer and spelling rules than we do and I could never learn or remember all of them. I usually just don't worry about it. When I read someting by some one who uses an apostrophe as we use quotation marks and wours like colour or realise, I realize it must have been written by someone educated in the U.K. or Canada etc. and continue to enjoy what I am reading.
Thank you for your reply, Laura -
Message 20
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Friday, 25th November 2011
Agincourt - however you film it is a fabulous tale - even if english archers are tossing french babies on their swords - it has one ending - an away win lol
if hollywood puts a spin on it - so what - the tale is told and people know about it - they may then investigate and learn the truth - if not - so what
as the late lamented buckskins used to say - u want entertainment see a film - u want truth read a book
and its also time someone wrote a book and made a film of 1066 - i will take the role of harold lol
st -
Message 21
Posted by Laura (U14532132) on Friday, 25th November 2011
I had to rub my eyes - Americans making a film about a brilliant English victory (with a Welsh king!)?
Michael Mann, director of 1995's action-packed 'Heat' (De Niro, Kilmer and Pacino) has officially signed on with an independent company to make an epic based upon "Sharpe's" English author Bernard Cornwell's classic novel, centering on an ace archer, Nicholas Hook, who fights for King Henry V.
Brad Pitt has been whispered as starring, but nothing's definite yet. A big name though is essential in recouping the studio's capital?
And what of that other 'English' film in pre-production- "1066"? Based upon English author Helen Hollick's novels with English director Robin Jacob, this is possibly another great film due in our cinema's soon?
The recent 'Robin Hood' by Ridley Scott should, by all accounts, have thrilled us, but we got (in my view) a typically damp fizzle of a British banger on a rainy Nov 5th?
What do we want from these films? What should we expect from such films?
Ìý Dear Hereword,
I may be an American but I do understand your pain when I see films that so incorrectly depict your history. I was amazed that the Battle of Stirling bridge in "Brave Heart" did not include a bridge. I suppose they thought that if they didn't mention a bridge as being key or show a bridge we would just assume that the most famous battle before they moved northward wasn't the Battle of Stirling Bridge. I imagine most Americans couldn't tell you. I rather enjoyed the movie for the entertainment value. I was yet in my thirties then and quite enamoured with Mel Gibson. I told my children, who were at that time still rather young, that it was just fiction based on a true story like so many other stories that we see on TV and at the movies. My oldest was 12 at the time and he loved that movie so I encouraged him to go to the library and use the computer until we got our own computer the fololowing year and look up William Wallace and his battles. He was hooked.(school computers were busy after school and extra credit was great but not for Britain's history) A year or so ago he found a website that has a great account oft the battle of hastings. www.essentialnormanconquest.com/timeline/timeline_13_oct.htm It makes you feel like you are almost there awaiting the battle readying the troops building shelters, sending out scouts, etc. Perhaps American movie makers could use this as a reference. They could read all accounts to figure out what is closest to accurate and which is just totally crazy. I mean, come on now, Queen Isabella must have been a tiny girl andy when she grew up, Wialliam Wallace was long since gone. She was far from a sweet young queen trying to help anyone but her own interests and those of Roger Mortimer. I just don't see why, with all the wonderful intrigue there is, they cannot find enough to write about that is true. I understand they need to spice things up a bit to entice female movie goers in the U.S. who are not battle buffs, which means most of them, but really. I cannot find any real reason to believe William I had any affairs outside his marriage. Anything I did see was ony a mere suggestion. Even them playing up a mere suggestion would be better than them out and out lying. I am sure they would blow a hint into a huge untruth that would overshadow the battle. I don't even know where I saw the suggestions because if I cannot find anything that backs up a claim I generally don't add it my research notes.
I have a friend who was a great friend of my father. He was a great music arranger and arranged for some big name bands and even played for big name bands in his time. His good friend is a well know singer/movie star. Though getting on in years he still does movies. Do you suppose voicing an opinion to him would help. I'll bet it could get as far as Mr. Gibson. I would like to see him put as much effort into a movie such as Hastings as he did "The Passion".
Laura -
Message 22
Posted by Laura (U14532132) on Friday, 25th November 2011
Dearest Marchog_du,
Thank you for coming to my aid. I appreciate all you had to say. I may American but I am so proud of my Ancestry. My brothers and sisters and numerous cousins don't care one way or another. They simply laugh at me. Not so much laughing at me since the geneaologists now but laughing at how much time I spend at it. I research each and every ancestor as thoroughly as I can and marvel at some of the things I find. We have a group over here called the "Daughter of the American Revolution" or the "DAR" as they are commonly referred. They are the snobbiest group of you- know -whats that you can imagine. You have to prove who your ancestors are, of course, to get into, this very exclusive club. My brother likes to pretend he's better than anyone else like the DAR woman too so he often says I should join. many of my relatives,whom I've never even met, were and or are members. I refuse. I simply tell him," no, I am too good for that bunch, I am Queen Elizabeth's cousin." Do you know how wonderful it is to think well, I am related to Mary Queen of Scots and then to oncover one by on someone you've onle read about in books. The first one I found was JamesI of Scotland. I found a lady who had a bunch of old photocopied records that she had from a geneaologist . She shared a little of my ancestry and found he was a cousin. I had already traced us back to across the ocean and a few generations and we were going along online and she said you are my cousin. she said he's your great grandfather. it took her about an hour but she came back and said he was m16th great grandfather. It turns out he was my 17th great grandfather. If I had never found another I wouldn"t have cared. I have never much cared for our own history. I mean who cannot pass American History. There is only 200 years of it. Now I have more than a thousand years of history, even more when I count All the Norman history and the History pre- Norman. it is all rich wit balles, love, hate, lust for others belongings, wives, and countries, and just a need to live a better life. I find something new everyday. I am now studying where the Vikings originally came from and I am totally amazed. I want more than anything to live in the U.K. after my significant other really retires. he always finds something else to do. He says he doesn't want to love there especially since I have my heart set on Scotland when my doctors say I need somplace like our own Arizona. I want to go to Falaise and see the casle of William I and see the Norman casles that are slill there before they are not. I want to see what I can of the old Roman wall and road and buildings. I want to see the battle sites. I want to learn more about Wales. My grandmother was Welch for all the generations anyone could ever recall. I her about great battles of England and Scotland France and Ireland and Spain but not much from Wales. I know only that many of the men slaughtered at Stirling Bridge were Welch. Someone give me something to study. I will get there with or without my man. There are other men but only one me and one lifetime and I want what I want.
Thank you again, Laura -
Message 23
Posted by Laura (U14532132) on Friday, 25th November 2011
To talk about battles in films. They have a new fim coming out here in the U.S. on Christmas Day called "The War Horse", which I understand was a play in Europe previously. I realize it is a fictional story but the war is real. Does anyone know if they depicted or mentioned any actual battles in the play? Spielberg is one of the good ones for details so it will be entertaining and very detail oriented and bring WWII into our theatres once again. You might think that we would have better things to do on Christmas.
Laura -
Message 24
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Friday, 25th November 2011
If you ever get over to the UK, Laura, the must-see for you will be just down the road from me (at least, it's just down the road for people who live in big countries) and that is the site of Fotheringhay Castle, where Mary Q of S was executed. There is only a large mound there now, but it is a beautiful little village and the place where Richard III was born.
The other see-if-you-can is the Orkney islands which have more prehistoric remains than you can imagine within a few miles of each other; the Neolithic village of Skara Brae, the chamber tomb of Maes Howe........... I won't go on, just take a look!
-
Message 25
Posted by Hugh Mosby-Joaquin (U14258131) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
"and that is the site of Fotheringhay Castle, ...."
Why can nobody explain where Fotheringhay castle went? Nowdays if I remember, there is one massive boulder, safely secured within its own iron fence. With good reason, the rest aren't there1
A few of the buildings, including the pub in the village own up to having a stone or two from its walls. IThe castle was still partially inhabited in the 18th century; I believe there are contempory etchings from that period.
So how did a massive castle disappear in 200 years? It was not small, and must have been made of thousands of tons of stone, much of it dressed, or ashlar, or similar. Was there an architectural reclamation business being undertaken that we don't know about? If so there must have been streams of wagons leaving the site for years!
There are many castles in Britain that fell into ruin 500 years ago, and there are abbeys and monasteries that fell foul of Henry Vlll's dissolusion. But much of their crumbling walls remain, and nobody has gone to too much trouble until very recently to stabilise what is left.
So why has Fotheringhay disappeared entirely? -
Message 26
Posted by Laura (U14532132) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
Some French guy wrote an account of Mary Queen of Scots's excecution in about 1665 and spelled it Fortheringay so you know some people dropped the second H. It was demolished under the reign of Charles I, according to at least one source I could find, all but the large bit of masonry that is there now. I looked it up last night when Raundsgirl said I should visit the site. I knew it had been a Motte and Bailey type of Castle and was surprised that so much of the mound still remains. Many land owners, not knowing what they were doing or not caring would remove the mounds bit by bit making it difficult to figure out where castles once were.
-
Message 27
Posted by Meles meles (U14993979) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
I thought it was Charles I - grandson, of course of the ill-fated Mary Queen o' Scots - who had the whole site of Fotheringay cleared. It had already fallen into disrepair with it's walls plundered for other local building projects, but I guess he might just have wanted to put the Stuart "stamp" on it.
-
Message 28
Posted by Laura (U14532132) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
Dear Raundsgirl,
Thank you for the great link to the Orkney Island site. I always knew about the Vikings association with the Islands and I knew there were some standing stones but I cetainly didn't know that much. I learned so much and I haven't even begun to read. Also, I knew the Picts were there but I learned a little more about them. I guess when it comes to the picts you are lucky if you can learn even one new thing.
By the way if you watch "Braveheart" you will learn that the 4 main warriors in a group are privileged to wear woad and a sort of red paint on their faces for some reason they never explained"
Regards, Laura -
Message 29
Posted by rhmnney (U14528380) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
Laura
what a coincidence, just yesterday I read on an American message board of a poster who said his Grandfather had taken part in the last cavalry charge by the US Army in France during WW1. His posting was a reply to a previous poster mentioning the film the 'War Horse'. Whether it happened or not difficult to say, not forgetting, the 'Western Front' was many miles in length, so many incidents may have occurred without general knowledge. -
Message 30
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
I am happy to say that I have never seen 'Braveheart' and have no intention of doing so. The lack of explanation for the woad may be that the film makers made it up!
Until fairly recently, there were some signposts in Northamptonshire (the most widely ignored county in England) with the spelling 'Fotheringhay' and others with 'Fotheringay' but they seem to have now settled on the former.
The castle was not in very good repair by the time Mary was executed there. My guess has always been that as this was a place that was important to the Plantagenets, the Tudors tried to ignore it as much as they could, without actually demolishing it. Henry VIII dissolved the monastic college there and left only the nave of the (previously) large church for use as a Parish church, which is why it appears strangely out of proportion.
Someone used the Great Hall of the castle as the basis for a mansion (now vanished) and the locals had probably taken to using such a handy source of building stone, so presumably Charles I just tidied up what was left. There has always been a story that the castle staircase was taken and installed in the Talbot Hotel in nearby Oundle, but it's more likey that it was just constructed from timbers from the castle. Legend also has it that as Mary came down the aforesaid stairs to her execution, the diamond in her ring made a mark in the wood that can still be seen. I have seen it and all I can say is, her ring would have needed a diamond the size of a pigeon's egg, and she would have had to stand there and have a good whack at the bannister, because the 'mark' is quite substantial!
Glad you liked the Orkney website, Laura, I have been there twice and would go again if I could! Maes Howe chamber tomb is the most awe-inspiring place. You have to bend almost double to negotiate the entrance tunnel, and it is so dark inside you can almost feel it. The guide will use a powerful torch to show you the graffiti written *in Runes* by Vikings who broke in through th roof in search of treasure.
We also went to North Ronaldsay where the sheep are kept on the seashore (except at lambing time) and eat seaweed. It's quite bizarre to see them wandering about amongst the seals. -
Message 31
Posted by Laura (U14532132) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
Islanddawn,
You are correct. When I was young and foolish I loved those historical romance novels. I devoured them. I knew they were fiction sprinkled with true historical facts. Mom said they were trash but Daddy said yes because I would run to the public library to see if the facts were true and ended up learning a lot.
Laura -
Message 32
Posted by Laura (U14532132) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
I am happy to say that I have never seen 'Braveheart' and have no intention of doing so. The lack of explanation for the woad may be that the film makers made it up!
Until fairly recently, there were some signposts in Northamptonshire (the most widely ignored county in England) with the spelling 'Fotheringhay' and others with 'Fotheringay' but they seem to have now settled on the former.
The castle was not in very good repair by the time Mary was executed there. My guess has always been that as this was a place that was important to the Plantagenets, the Tudors tried to ignore it as much as they could, without actually demolishing it. Henry VIII dissolved the monastic college there and left only the nave of the (previously) large church for use as a Parish church, which is why it appears strangely out of proportion.
Someone used the Great Hall of the castle as the basis for a mansion (now vanished) and the locals had probably taken to using such a handy source of building stone, so presumably Charles I just tidied up what was left. There has always been a story that the castle staircase was taken and installed in the Talbot Hotel in nearby Oundle, but it's more likey that it was just constructed from timbers from the castle. Legend also has it that as Mary came down the aforesaid stairs to her execution, the diamond in her ring made a mark in the wood that can still be seen. I have seen it and all I can say is, her ring would have needed a diamond the size of a pigeon's egg, and she would have had to stand there and have a good whack at the bannister, because the 'mark' is quite substantial!
Glad you liked the Orkney website, Laura, I have been there twice and would go again if I could! Maes Howe chamber tomb is the most awe-inspiring place. You have to bend almost double to negotiate the entrance tunnel, and it is so dark inside you can almost feel it. The guide will use a powerful torch to show you the graffiti written *in Runes* by Vikings who broke in through th roof in search of treasure.
We also went to North Ronaldsay where the sheep are kept on the seashore (except at lambing time) and eat seaweed. It's quite bizarre to see them wandering about amongst the seals.Ìý When I was 16 my father thought a trip to Europe would be nice for me during our Spring break from school. He enlisted my school's French teacher who found some other students and off we went with her and another couple of chaperones to Paris and London In Pairs we saw the usual sights, Eiffel Tower, Lovre and the gardens, Jardinsde Touleries,a caberet that was not unlike Moulin Rouge, (the two boys loved it)
In London we went to Windsor and saw Queen mary's Doll House, I loved it so much. I collected miniatures and was so captivated by those from so long ago. We went to a theatre and saw a production of "Mouse Trap" it bothers me that I can no longer remember the name of the theatre. We went to the Tower of London . I do remember that we stayed at The Atlantic Hotel and the Address was 1 Queen's Gardens. Paris was not fun much of the time. When we had our free time we came across dead people in the subways with writing in chalk all around them and foreigners who I probably should name grabbed at us and were worse that just fresh. We had to go out in groups of 4 1 boy and 3 girls. Like the boy was going to hel us.
I absolutely loved London. I corresponded with one of the doormen/all around the hotel men. He was only 18 so we got on quite well. After 7pm we had to stay in the Hotel so he would come play games with us. Thw pub had a game room but it was too roudy so we were allowed to have him in our room. There were after all three girls to a room.
I will get there again someday.
Laura -
Message 33
Posted by rhmnney (U14528380) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
Laura,
go to your local library and find a book titled, 'Kings no more', I have not read it but just opened it at random to have an idea of the contents, and I read, 'there were 3,500 English Bowmen of whom 3,300 were Welsh'. I am aware of the Welsh being Bowmen and Mercenaries but many other Celts also. In the town of Monmouth, Wales, there is a memorial to the Welsh Bowmen. A town not far away from Monmouth its claimed to be the birthplace of the Longbow, granted probably very few locals are aware of it.
I did learn from Hollywood of a local boy making good, to wit, 'Captain Henry Morgan', even gave him a Welsh accent, today very few people in the area are aware of him, but many know of a Lord, a later relative who was a young officer in the 'Charge of the Light Brigade', a local hero at that time. -
Message 34
Posted by stanilic (U2347429) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
What joy!
I have never forgotten Tony Curtis in some swords and tights movie declaring that `yander lies the cassel of my fadder'.
Can we have it included in the new film, please?
My cup will runneth over. -
Message 35
Posted by stanilic (U2347429) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
Whilst chasing the few English in my background I have found one lot with a Welsh surname who were farming in the sixteenth century as yeomen close to Berkhamsted which had a garrison of archers employed by Edward, the Black Prince. That family did well, there's lovely!
Not far away I found another lot who were originally French living in the next village to the late Sir Nele Loring who was one of the greatest mercenaries in the Hundred Years War. There is an interesting family story connected to that which I won't bore you with as it is only significant to us, but did they come with the Normans (possibly), settled there in the Middle Ages (possibly) or came as Hugonaut refugees (probably).
This has drawn me into perceptions of extended families or clans in seventeenth and eighteenth century England, just as in the Scottish Highlands and western Ireland.
How is it Laura, that you can claim to be a cousin of both Madge and I and watch that most insulting of all films, Braveheart? I know there is a recessive gene in the Bruce clan that enjoys history which we seem to share, but history has nothing to do with that ghastly film which seeks to prove us gal-Gaidheal were just vulgar brutes entirely interested in just hitting each other. The wars between the Plantagenet Kings of England and the divided monarchy of Scotland were not national conflicts but choreographed around feudal niceties.
Lastly, on this topic there is every probability now that I had family in both Cromwell's New Model Army and others fighting for the Irish Confederacy. Now I don't think there are many like me around. No wonder I have spent most of my life utterly confused. -
Message 36
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
A town not far away from Monmouth its claimed to be the birthplace of the Longbow, granted probably very few locals are aware of it.Ìý
I'm not sure anywhere can claim to be the birthplace of a weapon which has evolved and developed over such a long span of time.
However, the military 'longbow' (the war bow or livery bow as it was usually known in the Middle Ages - 'longbow' didn't really come into common use until the 16th century) favoured by English armies in the Hundred Years War was English. Welsh bows tended to be shorter, and were usually made (IIRC) of elm rather than the yew preferred in England. The yew was usually imported, incidentally - Italian, Spanish or (if it could be obtained) French. The locally grown stuff was inferior.
The English did employ a lot of Welsh archers, though. -
Message 37
Posted by glen berro (U8860283) on Sunday, 27th November 2011
Perhaps you should be careful if you are considering a visit to Orkney, Laura.
When my Dad was an air traffic controller at Kirkwall, 40+yrs ago, he met an American who had been doing a 3months tour of Europe. He had called at Orkney and was still there 10ys later.
I would like to revisit Shetland during daylight hours as I lived there for a few months in winter and didn't get a real chance to see any of the archaeology or even history such as the Shetland bus, due to lack of daylight time.
Most people don't realise the Northern Isles are nearly as far north as Anchorage. -
Message 38
Posted by rhmnney (U14528380) on Sunday, 27th November 2011
Anglo-Norman,
The article I read was from the Encyclopedia Britannica, it referred to the Longbow used by the Welsh Archers. Some years later I read that the Knight Shining Armour was not made redundant because the suit did not rust out, but made obsolete by the Welsh Longbow. That appeared in an American question and answers quiz. It may well be that the Welsh made first the use of the longbow as mercenaries (heck they didn't have a country to farm) so as to become a tool of war. It seems that the general term for the Longbow is has now become, 'Welsh Longbow'. Something like 'Automobile', and other generic terms. -
Message 39
Posted by rhmnney (U14528380) on Sunday, 27th November 2011
glen berro.
Your post reminded me of when I lived in Canada, I lived in a locality in 1954 that had very few telephones our nearest one was 5 miles away at an hotel, I was in the area to seek employment at an uranium mine and the family I lived with house geologists in cabins. Seems like in the Orkney case, each time a geologist travelled to the far North of Canada, land of Isolation, Frost, Ice, Snow and Cold they just loved it and stayed. Some were men in their 30s it seemed quite a puzzle. The only way in or out was by plane, the photos showed a man standing by a small airplane with the whole landscape covered with snow. They used to say a geologist was always wandering off searching for rocks, the further away from civilization the better. -
Message 40
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Sunday, 27th November 2011
The article I read was from the Encyclopedia BritannicaÌý
Not a specialist work.
I read that the Knight Shining Armour was not made redundant because the suit did not rust out, but made obsolete by the Welsh Longbow.Ìý
On the contrary, improvements in armour had started to render the longbow largely obsolete by the end of the 15th century. It was firearms which were the doom of armour - both by their power and ease of use (hours rather than years of training). -
Message 41
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
-
Message 42
Posted by Laura (U14532132) on Sunday, 27th November 2011
Dear glen berro,
I have recently read an article about archeaologists in the Orkney's. I noticed the start digging in July and stop in August. I guess you have cleared up th question of they don't start sooner or end later. Now I seen why the Vikngs felt so at home there.
Thank you, Laura -
Message 43
Posted by rhmnney (U14528380) on Sunday, 27th November 2011
It took a long time before firearms equalled the killing power of the Longbow, the horse the knight rode on was the downfall of the knight, read accounts of wars fought with bows and arrows. It was the length of time it took to train a longbowman where as firearms took less training, plus economics. During WW2 an American Arms expert claimed the longbow was more effective in battle than a M1 rifle at 100 yards in Europe, the reason, an arrow hit was more damaging to the human body that a bullet. During WW2 the Armies realized wounds were far more detrimental to the enemy than death, that was why weapons were introduced for wounding rather than killing, anti-personal mines for a start, S mine a good specimen. (I thought everyone knew that)
-
Message 44
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Monday, 28th November 2011
And also why soldiers were usually ordered to wound, not kill, an enemy soldier, the logic being that his disablement would then tie up the manpower of several of his rescuing colleagues.
-
Message 45
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Monday, 28th November 2011
I have recently read an article about archeaologists in the Orkney's. I noticed the start digging in July and stop in AugustÌý
That is not particular only to the Orkney's Laura, it is the standard time of a digging season also here in Greece, for instance. Archaeologists here usually spend the winter months cleaning, assessing and cataloguing summer finds, giving tutorials and lectures etc and it also allows for archaeology students to spend summer breaks gaining field experience.
There is one particular dig near where I live which has been on-going for over 10yrs and the actual digging itself is only done for 6 weeks of every year during July/August. It is a very slow process, and as fascinating as archaeology is I'm not sure that I'd have the patience for it! -
Message 46
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Monday, 28th November 2011
If you ever get over to the UK, Laura, the must-see for you will be just down the road from me (at least, it's just down the road for people who live in big countries) and that is the site of Fotheringhay Castle, where Mary Q of S was executed. There is only a large mound there now, but it is a beautiful little village and the place where Richard III was bornÌý
Although the mound of the castle is not that exciting a visit to the local parish church opposite is also highly recommended which includes a beautiful stained glass window dedicated to the memory of Richard installed by the Richard III Society. It is also fairly close to Oundle public school which can be visited out-of-term. -
Message 47
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Monday, 28th November 2011
"Cecil B. De Mille
Rather against his will
Was persuaded to leave out Moses
When filming "The Wars of the Roses" -
Message 48
Posted by Laura (U14532132) on Monday, 28th November 2011
I only know one rhyme about Britain's history.
"Richard and John
Had the same mother
One was a Norman
What was the other?"
I believe I heard it in an old movie,of course. -
Message 49
Posted by Laura (U14532132) on Monday, 28th November 2011
I hope to get there again before I am too old to enjoy it. I would hate to have to go with an old folks travel club and be one of the ones who have to watch from the coach window.
Laura
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