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Joe Frazier - Slice of history
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Message 1.Β
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
i am a bit disappointed someone didnt post on this mans death as he is a huge part of history - albeit the sport part
1971 - vietnam still ongoing - decimilisation - vcrs invented - paranoid released etc etc
but in the usa and reflected the whole world over a short blackman was making history - a man with dignity and huge courage was giving the black usa population a huge injection of self belief
born in poverty he gave every coloured american a way out by his sheer willpower
joe frazier rip
st -
Message 2
Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
There's no disputing the assertion that Joe Frazier was a great boxer, and together with Foreman and Ali, they were three of the greatest boxers of all time....
And I will join you in saying RIP to a boxer who, IMHO, could take on any heavyweight today, and make mincement of them.
But the question is this: how is Frazier's world champs victories historic? He wasn't the first black man to win the title. Neither was he the standard-bearer of civil rights, the way Ali was.... -
Message 3
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Wednesday, 16th November 2011
hi shivfan
the reason i think Fraziers victory over ali is historic is this
joe louis was the first black heavyweight champion who was accepted by the whites through his skill and his dignity - but after him there was still the spectre of "the great white hope" - ie johansson pete rademacher etc
patterson was a champion acceptable to the whites - liston smashed him and put racial acceptability back 50 years because of his contacts - ali beat him but then turned into a black muslim - unacceptable to the whites
he was stripped of the title - jimmy ellis and frazier fought for the title - both acceptable to all races - only one obstacle remained - ali
he was still a hate figure to the whites and when frazier beat him the whole white world breathed a sigh of relief
i think that from that point onwards the heavyweight championship transcended race
ali became a favourite of everyone and the title just became the property of the best fighter - race had nothing to do with it - and still doesnt
the challengers - probably the finest crop of heavyweights in history - were just that - challengers - no colours involved
norton - shavers - lyle - merrit - blue lewis - holmes - bobick - morrisson etc etc - who uses the term great white hope now ??
all through fraziers victory
my opinion of course
st -
Message 4
Posted by GrandFalconRailroad (U14802912) on Thursday, 17th November 2011
What I'd like to add is this - Frazier was historical BECAUSE he didn't feel the need to do a Clay/Ali (though he supported the "Not going to Vietnam" thing) - sometimes we are all historical because of acts of omission.
Why he felt he didn't have to do this is the question...but I don't doubt he was doing it for the right reasons he felt. -
Message 5
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Thursday, 17th November 2011
I was rather struck by some of the comments which "joe public" made about both Joe Frasier and Jimmy Saville- nb. that they both had time for people regardless of race, creed, colour, or social status.. This seemed to be a common consensus that went passed the Media image..
By his own admission Ali realised the advantages of the "hard sell" in an age of "Ad/Mad Men". I think that he said that he saw how Little Richard made "I am so beautiful" work for him- and surely Ali is "a legend in his own lifetime"- a "special one"..
But in this age of instant and manufactured stardom some of us older ones perhaps appreciate the "greatness" of those for whom it was enough to feel themselves to be essentially just an ordinary person..
In the recent George Harrison documentary ( having perhaps suffered/gained from the big egos of John and Paul) he said that he had written some songs particularly aimed at saying to everyone from his kind of roots- "you can do it too. I am no-one special"
Cass -
Message 6
Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Thursday, 17th November 2011
It could be argued that Joe Louis was the acceptable face of black boxing because he did his best not to offend whites, and knew his place, at a time when black people were second-class citizens in the US, unlike Jack Johnson, who demanded equality at a time when America was not prepared to give it....
The question is, which approach was the better one to take? Most modern black Americans would feel a greater affinity to Johnson's stand against perceived injustice, than the Brown Bomber's meek acceptance of it.
Frazier and Foreman kept their political opinions to himself, while Ali was identified with black civil rights movements that demanded an end to segregation in the US.
I feel that if the historic appendage is going to be applied, it's more likely to be applied to those fighters who campaigned for change....
Otherwise, to be historic, you would have to achieve something in the sport that hasn't been achieved before. Frazier was a great fighter, but was unfortunate enough to reach his peak at a time when Ali and Foreman were also at their peaks. -
Message 7
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Thursday, 17th November 2011
Shivfan
While you may be correct in terms of recent history writing that has been obsessed with conflict and struggle, but I am mindfull of a recent reading of R.J. White's "Peterloo to Crystal Palace"- a sequel to his "Waterloo to Peterloo"..
White developed the thesis that, while the men of conflict in an age of class war and utopian socialism often made the headlines, it was people like Samuel Taylor Coleridge in his lay sermons (as the son of a clergyman) who were actually laying the foundations for the mid-Victorian boom times.. He described the work of Coleridge, Bentham and others who were quietly working on an all-embracing future for the common good: the vision of progress for all that seemed possible for a couple of decades.
Cass -
Message 8
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Saturday, 19th November 2011
Just a quick point Shiv, it is certainly the case that Ali was more closely identified with the racial politics of his era than most other boxers of that period. However it would be incorrect to suggest that vocal opposition to the inequalities based on race meant he was in favour of desegregation. During the height of his career his opinions usually came direct from Elijah Muhamed and the Nation of Islam and they had concluded that the institutionalised discrimination evident in the US was proof that white America was incapable of delivering on the ideals of freedom and equality irrespective of race. As a result they proposed that blacks and whites should live separately and in doing so were reiterating the views Edward Blyden.
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Message 9
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Saturday, 19th November 2011
hi shivfan
disagree with your summary of johnson and louis
johnson did nothing to advance equality of his race - indeed he did more to disgrace his people at a time they needed a champion of dignity - all his wives were white - he was a wife beater and he never gave a chance to the black heavyweights around at the time (eg sam langford the tar baby) - all his defences were against white fighters - and he finally lost his title to a white fighter - jess willard - when there were far better black fighters around
joe louis didnt do his best to try and not offend white people- he was a fighter and fought - he fought anyone anywhere - black or white - his second fight with schmeling was a revenge fight - not black over white - he was a warrior full stop
the only heavyweight in history to fight for change was ali - and when he returned the whole of white america was against him - after frazier beat him he - after fighting anyone on earth suddenly regained the affection of the public - and from that day on the heavyweight champion transcended race and gender
fraxier even after beating ali said nothing about race and was never an uncle tom but was also a warrior - i had the privelege of meeting him and yank durham at the leicester square ballroom when he was training to fight bugner - in no time in his 3 fights with ali did he mention race or alis religion and since the first fight the heavyweight title has been a fighters title
after the beating he took from foreman he still wanted to fight him again - foreman has said that before his first fight he was frightened silly - and ali has said that when he fought foreman and was taking savage blows that would have destroyed any other fighter - the only thing that kept him going was that he knew foreman didnt have the same willpower as frazier
rip joe
joe frazier rip -
Message 10
Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Sunday, 20th November 2011
stalti, I was going to draw your attention to the thread I'd started on Jack Johnson, but I see you'd already found it!
I think we can debate the pros and cons of Jack Johnson there....
But back to Frazier...I think he was one of the three greatest fighters of what is arguably the golden era of heavyweight boxing. But there was a bit of needle between Frazier and Ali, and it wasn't just from Ali's side. Frazier insisted on calling Ali 'Clay', as if he refused to accept that Ali had changed his name. Ali felt that it was an insult to call him by his 'slave name', since he'd changed it, and that Frazier was doing it deliberately to annoy him. Well, it worked! -
Message 11
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Friday, 25th November 2011
hi shivfan
agreed we will do johnson on ur other thread lol
u say frazier was one of the three best heavyweights of the golden era - agreed there
yes indeed - but a discussion here - not an argument lol
i will list a few of that golden era - ellis patterson liston foreman ali frazier lyle merritt shavers mathis bonavena al blue lewis norton etc - and what a golden era that was
all of these were fearsome warriors - not one of them took a backward step in the ring - none of them would have complained of a broken big toe - we didnt realise at the time we were seeing the end of an era
st -
Message 12
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Friday, 2nd December 2011
possibly my last post on smoking joe
he - because ali was retired - was my idol - and even after ali returned he was a hero
i read in the Ring magazine in the 70s a fantastic article saying Joe Frazier - how lucky was he to exist
the points were thus
november 1966 ali destroyed cleveland williams - probably the greatest destuction of a top class heavyweight ever seen - march 67 he desroyed zora folley and was then stripped of his title
he was at his peak - if this hadnt happened he would have destroyed every contender one by one for the next 10 years
in late 67 frazier stopped george chuvalo for (first time chuvalo was stopped) - in early 68 he beat buster mathis then also in 68 manuel ramos and bonavena - making him the no 1 contender
either before or after these fights - in 1968 if ali was active - as a contender - Frazier would have been thrown into the man mincing machine that ali would have been then - Ali would have been unbeatable - and one of the best heavyweight champions ever (my opinion) wouldnt have even existed apart as a bit part contender
yet as it panned out he was a major part of the 2 best heavyweight fights in history (fight of the century and the thrilla in manilla)
st
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