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German knowledge of Bletchley Park
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by marchog_du_aka_Stoggler (U14998493) on Monday, 7th November 2011
Hi
Was just curious about whether the Germans knew the function of Bletchley Park, or at least had an inkling that it was a centre for intelligence rather than code breaking specifically?
Considering that Bletchley Park was set up prior to the war starting, did the Germans have any knowledge of the place? Did any reconnasence (sp!) planes or stray bombers spot it and wonder what it was?
I know that the German spy network in the UK was next to non-existant during the war, but it was a large site with thousanads of staff and must have drawn *some* attention...
Thanks -
Message 2
Posted by RusEvo (U2126548) on Monday, 7th November 2011
Well I believe that the employees working there were not even able to tell people that they had a Government job, let alone one in the intelligence arena. I think some even were accused by locals of being cowards etc but could say nothing.
Seems like VERY high security to me. Would not surprise me if the Germans did not know about it. -
Message 3
Posted by marchog_du_aka_Stoggler (U14998493) on Monday, 7th November 2011
Well I believe that the employees working there were not even able to tell people that they had a Government job, let alone one in the intelligence arena. I think some even were accused by locals of being cowards etc but could say nothing.Μύ
That seems to be different to what the book I'm reading says; the locals were well aware that it was an important centre for the war effort, but didn't (seemingly) ask many questions. Considering that the vast majority of those who worked at Bletchley Park were billeted with locals, plus uniforms would be seen on occasion (despite the formality at the place), and the types of people they had lodging with them, they knew it was important war work going on.
The men were often accused of cowardice when they travelled away from the area, as many didn't have uniforms. -
Message 4
Posted by dmatt47 (U13073434) on Monday, 7th November 2011
Well I believe that the employees working there were not even able to tell people that they had a Government job, let alone one in the intelligence arena. I think some even were accused by locals of being cowards etc but could say nothing.Μύ
That seems to be different to what the book I'm reading says; the locals were well aware that it was an important centre for the war effort, but didn't (seemingly) ask many questions. Considering that the vast majority of those who worked at Bletchley Park were billeted with locals, plus uniforms would be seen on occasion (despite the formality at the place), and the types of people they had lodging with them, they knew it was important war work going on.
The men were often accused of cowardice when they travelled away from the area, as many didn't have uniforms.Μύ It was well-known that something was going on at Bletchley Park as the people were transported by coach in and out. It is likely that people didn't ask questions as they said at the time that 'Careless Talk Costs Lives'. -
Message 5
Posted by RusEvo (U2126548) on Monday, 7th November 2011
I must have remembered wrong.
If they were coached in to work then the people where they lived may have been unaware.
But that diverts us from the topic. Didn't the Soviets know more about it than the Germans? -
Message 6
Posted by Peggy Monahan (U2254875) on Monday, 7th November 2011
Didn't the Soviets know more about it than the Germans?Μύ
They were Allies during the war. -
Message 7
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Monday, 7th November 2011
Surely a huge number of stately homes were requisitioned for the war effort and all of them were supposed to be crucial in one way or another.. But as stately homes most of them were probably set back in extensive grounds out of the view of the "common people".
And it is not obvious to me that the Germans would have understood putting such a key installation in such scrappy looking huts- though I suppose they looked better sixty-odd years ago. Just thinking of the lavish scale of the complex at Pienemunde.
Cass -
Message 8
Posted by David James Wall (U14752090) on Tuesday, 8th November 2011
Tuesday 8th November, 2011. GMT:0954
Re: marchog_du
With respect to all concerned, I'm not sure whether this is true but apparently RIBBENTROP; the REICH Foreign Minister was told that Bletchley Park existed in 1940: on the day the so called 'Battle of France' began. Inotherwords the 10th May, 1940. A so called WITCH (whatever that meant during the 2nd World War) posted a letter to the REICH Foreign Ministry; BERLIN describing Bletchley Park as an X - FACTOR detail. The so called 'Station - X' was believed to be in Northamptonshire or Bedfordshire and working; 'not to their advantage...' The so called WITCH was living in Islington, London and believed to be an Antiques Merchant who had made a living in the 1930's as an 'Import / Export Concession'. Her codename was 'witch- hazel' and her 'control' was a British tax inspector in 'HM / Customs and Excise'. He codename was 'masterman' and was 'run' by ADLER; 'Abwer' (German Naval Intelligence).
The upshot of this 'ring' or 'circus' was that Bletchley Park was left to its own devices. Why remains a mystery; given that the 'BATTERY - key' ie. ENIGMA decrypt for the 'Abwer' STATION - MASTER was one of the so called 'golden eggs'. Purportedly the 'Abwer' decrypts delivered to 'PM / Whitehall' were 5 (five) pages in length ever calender month... -
Message 9
Posted by marchog_du_aka_Stoggler (U14998493) on Tuesday, 8th November 2011
Hi RusEvo
If they were coached in to work then the people where they lived may have been unaware.Μύ
I don't know about being coached in to work, but many cycled, or used public transport, or simply walked.
And a large influx of "outsiders" in a fairly rural area (as it was at the time) are not going to go unnoticed and not raise some questions from the locals. Although as I said yesterday, most simply accepted them as being part and parcel of the war effort.
Hi Peggy
I recall reading a few years ago that their were a number of Soviet spies at Bletchley.
Hi Casseroleon
You're right - many stately homes were requisitioned during the war.
I was looking at Google Earth last night and they have an aerial photo of the area in 1945, and it was huge! It covered a massive area, certainly by the end of the war (and it started to expand beyond the main house very early on anyway). The main house is just a stone throw's from Bletchley train station and so this one was not really set back and away from the "common people" (I don't think it was ever a grand old stately home - not one you would have visited ordinarily). But you're right, most were set away from prying eyes.
Hi David
Interesting what you say, although I confess I do find it difficult to read what you say with all the CAPITALS - it's rather distracting and rather unorthodox. intrigued, were you taught to write letters, reports, essays like at school?
Thanks all -
Message 10
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 8th November 2011
marchdog
I think that in this the "Foyles War" dramas took full advantage of the pre-existing country-house mystery tradition to reflect a reality of the war..
And not long ago I read a Fifties biography of Group Captain Leonard Cheshire who started up his VIP programme based upon the large number of stately homes that their former owners could no longer afford to run..
Of course some of them (like Stowe House just after the First World War) had already been changed into the extensive boarding school system that was necessary in the days of the British Empire. I remember finding the equivalent of a "Good Schools Guide" from the late Thirties and was amazed at just how many there were set in those country houses and their estates. In "The Larkins" set in the Fifties did they not in one episode consider buying such a place now no longer needed with the end of nb. the British Raj?
So my point was in part that there was something of a "needle in a haystack" situation, and active policies of misinformation and manipulation- not least for the Germans.
I think that a great advantage was the fact that Nazism was obsessed with the Masterace idea- and the Hitlerite establishment was pre-programmed to place power in the hands of people who had the arrogance to believe that really there was no effective competition. The German mind was ahead and would always be "one step ahead". Somewhat caracatured as usual in popular drama but the film "Pimpernel Smith" rather played on that idea.
Cass -
Message 11
Posted by marchog_du_aka_Stoggler (U14998493) on Tuesday, 8th November 2011
So my point was in part that there was something of a "needle in a haystack" situation, and active policies of misinformation and manipulation- not least for the Germans.Μύ
Ah, that does make sense. Thank you.
By the way, who's marchdog? -
Message 12
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 8th November 2011
marchog
Apologies for giving you a hound status that was inappropriate.
Cass -
Message 13
Posted by marchog_du_aka_Stoggler (U14998493) on Tuesday, 8th November 2011
Apologies for giving you a hound status that was inappropriate.
Μύ
My status is more horsey (marchog being Welsh for knight (in chess)) -
Message 14
Posted by David James Wall (U14752090) on Tuesday, 8th November 2011
Tuesday 8th November, 2011. GMT:1503
Re: marchog_du
In addition to that which was written earlier, it should be noted that from the first day of the so called 'Battle of France', 10th May, 1940; RIBBENTROP: the REICH Foreign Minister demanded that his personal correspondence should be transmitted 'on - line' in the form of encrypted 'one time pads'. This was with regards to German Embassy detail within the REICH (Germany), within the GREICH (Greater Germany) and in particular 'AS transport detail' (inotherwords 'Programme A' or the 'Final Solution to the Jewish Problem') in the Occupied Territories. It should be noted that RIBBENTROP's complicity in the 'AS transports' to the 'Dedicated Extermination CENTRES' resulted in his execution by hanging after conviction at the 'Nuremberg War Crimes Trials'. He had a lot to hide...
ps: the weird detail is that whilst RIBBENTROP never made use of ENIGMA and indeed FISH as far as I know after the 10th May, 1940; he would conduct 'conference attend' on the wireless telephone or RT (radio telephone) in 'common parlance', 'plain air' or 'plain language'. This was known to the D.NI (Directorate. Naval Intelligence) whose NSD (Naval Signals Division) 'Y - stations' filed the 'captured' correspondence under the codeword MANIQUINE. It should be understood that the NSD on behalf of the D.NI gathered together some 450 individual conversations made by RIBBENTROP over a 5 (five) year period; from the 1st January, 1940 to the 31st December, 1944: covering some 3,500 individual A4 sheets of squared graph paper.
pss: perhaps an even more weird detail is that RIBBENTROP believed himself to be in 'COMMAND and CONTROL' of German Military Intelligence. Sometimes refered to as 'Abwehr' as opposed to Abwer (German Naval Intelligence); German Military Intelligence was placed in the hands of the REICH Foreign Ministry the day Adolf Hitler was elected Chancellor. Why this was the case; as opposed to the KEY being placed in the hands of OKW / KOMMAND: 'vos strasser' remains a mystery. For the record; 'Keitel / Jodle KOMMAND Andon' was divorced from 'Abwehr' / German Military Intelligence. The inference; as far as NSD and D.NI was concerned: was that RIBBENTROP was 'unhappy' about OKW / KOMMAND ENIGMA security. -
Message 15
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Tuesday, 8th November 2011
marchdog
The Germans certainly knew that the Government Codes & Cypher School (GC&CS) organisation existed, but there was no particular reason for them to associate it with BP.
Bletchley Park was acquired by "Quex" Sinclair privately, to keep it off official records at the time of Munich At that stage it was intended to be the war station for all of SIS, not just GC&CS. By the time it had expanded to huge size, German espionage and aerial reconnaissance had been virtually eliminated.
The Luftwaffe did bomb BP early in the war, damaging Elmers School which was being used by the codebreakers. However, the target was probably the railway junction (one of the reasons for locating Station X in Bletchley) rather than BP itself.
Major efforts were made to prevent the Germans finding out their ciphers had been compromised, so targetting the site at BP was not a priority.
The Soviets were undoubtedly aware that the German traffic was being read. The UK shared some Enigma-derived intelligence with them. Philby and Blunt both had access to intercept reports in their wartime roles, and John Cairncross was based for a time at BP. But he was in Hut 3, the Air/Land fusion and reporting centre, not one of the actual code-breaking teams. The important thing was to conceal precisely how the ciphers were being broken, which accounts for much of the post-war secrecy.
LW -
Message 16
Posted by Priscilla (U14315550) on Wednesday, 9th November 2011
A very close family friend - naval commander and whose role at BP I never knew until his lengthy Times obit, may have often stayed there. He only ever told me that his war time role involved submarines but nothing more other than that sadly he was office bound. Since he was an amputee - and I never found out how that happened either, that made sense until much more was revealed after he died and his subsequent high position at the admiralty.
It is highly admirable that so many kept silence for so long about their wartime effort and sad that their roles of such vital importance went unhonoured. When asked yesterday by a young person how on earth was it we won the war, all I could think to say in a word was " 'Teamwork.' Get that right and a great deal can be achieved."
Probably trite of me but founded from truth in my own life.
An interesting thread and information. Thanks, other posters.
Regards, P -
Message 17
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Wednesday, 9th November 2011
The two slogans, "Careless Talk costs Lives" and "Be like Dad - Keep Mum"
were taken very seriously by most of the population, so the staff at BP were no exception. They had signed the Official Secrets Act and were silent to the extent that often people in one hut hads no idea what those in the next hut did. -
Message 18
Posted by marchog_du_aka_Stoggler (U14998493) on Wednesday, 9th November 2011
and were silent to the extent that often people in one hut hads no idea what those in the next hut did.Μύ
That's what I was reading today in the book I'm currently reading on BP (will leave a link below) - one of the ladies who worked there and who now does tours at the museum said that it wasn't until she started being involved with the museum in recent years that she ever went into or learnt what went on in most of the other huts.
The book I'm reading is this: The Secret Life of Bletchley Park, by Sinclair McKay
Am enjoying it.
Incidentally, as LongWeekend was writing yesterday about BP being bombed during the war I was reading just that in the book. Apparently two bombs went off during the war, but others did fall but failed to detonate (some are still in the ground, their locations not known...). The author mentions that Bletchley (the town as much as BP) was actually quite lucky not to have been bombed more often considering that Bletchley was an important and busy rail junction and the rail lines could often be seen by aircrew. -
Message 19
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Wednesday, 9th November 2011
Priscilla
Actually your "teamwork" comment chimed in with something that had been bubbling in the back of my mind about this whole thread..
In these days of "dumbed down" thinking there is a great appetite for establishing just what the key and decisive elements are/were so that people can make a big noise about them..
But (and here I am going to risk the ire of other MB members) a quiet ,modest and understated element of character used to be considered one of the major English characteristics- and many people during the war possibly even most, would probably just say that they did their duty to the best of their ability..
[I have a Winston Churchill mug given to me by ex-pupils with two quotes
"I am not usually accused even by my friends of a modest or retiring disposition"
And
"I am easily satisfied with the best"]
During the war there was no time to consider which element was "the key" one.. Britain was like a chain driven machine and the only "key" link in a chain is the one that breaks.
I recall that Leonard Cheshire made sure whenever he returned from a sortie would make a point of going and thanking the engineers who had provided him with the aircraft with which he had been able to complete his mission, apologising for bringing it back plus a few bullet-holes etc that would give them more work in a hurry.
Re fathers- I have often wondered what impact my own father's "reserved occupation" had upon his subsequent life. But I suppose I might never have been born in 1944 otherwise.
Cass -
Message 20
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Wednesday, 9th November 2011
That must be Jean Valentine, marchog! An amazing lady; she must be about 80 now. She took our group round for a tour, and it was a very hot day. We were wilting a bit but she was still going strong.
After working at BP she went out to work on Japanese codes in the Far East. -
Message 21
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 9th November 2011
marchog-du
Mackay's book is ok, but much of the material has appeared in earlier books. He also likes to put in trendy intepretations of history - for instance that the Luftwaffe's 1940 bomber campaign was drive by the RAF bombing Germany, and that Matapan was a small engagement. He even forgets to mention Matapan by name in the in the text, despite the help he got from Mavis Batey! His use of Mrs Gallilee's recollections of her role as as a messenger/clerk is very informative, though.
I would recommend "Bletchley Park Codebreakers" by Ralph Erskine and Michael Smith, or Codebreakers: The Inside Story of Bletchley Park" by H Hinsley and Alan Stripp (who were both there) as better accounts. Mavis Batey's own book, "Dilly" is also extremely good, and very well written.
Bletchley probably was lucky not to be bombed again in 1940 but like Bedford to the east (on a similar junction) it was a small place between the much more important targets in London and the Midlands. Much as Goering would probably have liked, the Luftwaffe didn't have the resources to bomb everything. In comparison, Bedford was only deliberately attacked once, by a daylight raider in 1942, who was aiming either for the railway bridge or Allen's engineering works - he missed both.
As a demonstration of just how small Bletchley was in comparison to the billeting needs of BP, personnel were billeted as far away as Buckingham, Leighton Buzzard and Bedford, and in the villages in between. In the end, the Army and RAF built hutted camps in Bletchley, while the Wrens were installed in all the local manor houses that SOE hadn't already grabbed.
LW -
Message 22
Posted by marchog_du_aka_Stoggler (U14998493) on Wednesday, 9th November 2011
Hi LW
I've read other books on the subject, including the first two you've recommended. I agree, McKay's book doesn't have anything particularly new, but that does not stop me enjoying it! -
Message 23
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 9th November 2011
marchog_du
Well, so long as you are enjoying it.
I note what you say earlier about BP's proximity to Bletchley. In 1940, it was really on the edge of town and what is now the main entrance was the back gate (available to those arriving by train). The main entrance was at the other end, so a bit more discrete. I took my father to BP recently. He used to go there regularly after the war when the Magistrates Court was on the site and the old entrance was still in use then. It took him a while to re-orientate himself.
That said, everyone in Bletchley knew something was going on. But it probably appeared very boring - no tanks or big guns, and few of the RAF types had wings.
A lot of local girls got civilian jobs there and then were deferred from call-up, which probably pleased their parents.
LW -
Message 24
Posted by David James Wall (U14752090) on Thursday, 10th November 2011
Thursday 10th November, 2011. GMT:1026
Re: Group Captain CHESHIRE. VC
With respect to the note that Leonard Cheshire personally thanked the manufacturers of the aircraft he was flying after each sortie; it should be noted that repairs to AVRO Lancasters were undertaken at the Production Plant / RINGWAY. Liverpool. Very few repairs regarding 'battle damage', let alone general maintenance; were undertaken at 'forward operating airfields'.
As for the general thread regarding 'German knowledge of Bletchley Park' during the 2nd world War; I have written about that elsewhere.
As for the general interest in so called 'Stately Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔs'; I should point out that Bleinhem Palace, Woodstock, Oxfordshire was used by D.NI (Directorate. Naval Intelligence) as an attend to 'Station - X': ie. Bletchley Park. There is at least one extant photogragh in the 'public realm' which shows the main entrance hall of Bleinhem Palace being used as the so called 'card index'. Whether the boys from the Public School billeted in the Library were aware of this is a moot point; someone suggested that were the main workforce. What I do know is that Leonard Cheshire visited the 'card index' on a number of occasions to check FLAK movements... -
Message 25
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Thursday, 10th November 2011
David James Wall
Thanks for the information..
But one of the key things about Cheshire was that he demonstrated the greater efficiency of lower level pin-point bombing with (I seem to remember) the advantages offered by the faster and more manoeuvrable Mosquito, which he flew in order to identify targets and plant markers to guide the later bombers. He convinced the RAF to assemble a small squadron dedicated to this end- perhaps (I am not a "plane buff"- and I am sure that others will correct me if I am wrong) there were issues about the availability of the Mosquito, which to some extent suffered (as sometimes happened) from being something of a Jack of All trades..
But flying right down to almost ground level almost certainly brought Cheshire within range of small arms fire, so perhaps this produced damage that could more easily be dealt with by "sticking plaster" solutions- not (as you said) by the manufacturers but by his ground crew (who also got a bottle of champagne when he made it through to Xmases.
Cass -
Message 26
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Thursday, 10th November 2011
DJW
I have to admit that given the construction of your posts are the curious use of capitals, I have assumed you are playing some sort of code/cipher game with friends, using these boards as a useful platform for messages (where, I wonder, do they post the replies?).
However, there are a number of inaccuracies in this last one that might mislead people following the thread.
Ringway was and is in Manchester, not Liverpool (hence choice of Manchester as a name for the Lancaster's predecessor). Lancs were built in Manchester and Leeds. Cheshire didn't thank aircraft producers after every raid, but as the CO of one of the first Halifax squadrons, he was involved in discussions with Handley Page. As CO of 617, he did have dealings with Avro's representatives on the modifications to their Lancasters, but I would be very surprised if they took place in Liverpool.
Blenheim was the country home of MI5, after Wormwood Scrubs was bombed, not NID or an outstaion of BP. The MI5 card index wouldn't have been much use to Cheshire - Medmenham, the photo interpretation centre altogether more likely, although the station/squadron intelligence officers were the ones with that job, rather than the squadron boss himself.
Reggards
LW
p.s am I right about the game? -
Message 27
Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Thursday, 10th November 2011
the weird detail is that whilst RIBBENTROP never made use of ENIGMA Μύ
Not so weird: The cryptological service of the Foreign Office, "Sonderdienst Pers. Z" had persistently rejected Enigma as offering insufficient security for diplomatic communications. Before declaring von Ribbentrop a genius (and nobody ever accused von Ribbentrop of being a genius, except Hitler) you have to consider that the requirements of the "Auswartiges Amt" were different than those of the military. Sensitive diplomatic messages might be a cause of embarrassment even decades after they had been sent. Tactical military communications would lose importance in a few months.
And indeed, military cryptanalysts were not all living in the illusion that the Allies would never be able to decipher Enigma messages. What they did not believe, was that the enemy would be able to do so quickly and consistently enough to generate militarily useful intelligence.
perhaps an even more weird detail is that RIBBENTROP believed himself to be in 'COMMAND and CONTROL' of German Military Intelligence. Sometimes refered to as 'Abwehr' as opposed to Abwer (German Naval Intelligence); German Military Intelligence was placed in the hands of the REICH Foreign Ministry the day Adolf Hitler was elected Chancellor.Μύ
Even von Ribbentrop cannot have been this delusional. The cause of your confusion may have been the extraordinary number of German cryptological services, eight in total -- and they did not cooperate much. As foreign minister, Ribbentrop did control one of them, Pers. Z, the largest of the civilian agencies, and one that was successful against foreign diplomatic codes. Another civilian agency was controlled by the SD, the security wing of the Nazi party.
Hermann Goering in his various offices controlled two cryptanalysis services, the Luftwaffe's Cipher Bureau (Chiffrierabteiling) and the semi-military Research Office (Forschungsamt). The Army had its own Inspectorate 7, the Navy had its B-Dienst (there was no such thing as an Abwer without h), and the OKW as overall high command of the armed forces had its own cipher bureau, which was supposed to coordinate the service bureaus but often lived in competition with it.
The Abwehr, as counterintelligence service, was the eight German cryptanalysis service; it was linked to the OKW but did not report to it. The Abwehr's main responsibility was counter-espionage, and it did not add much to German decryption efforts. -
Message 28
Posted by Lyra (U2293272) on Monday, 21st November 2011
My mother in law worked at Bletchley Park and lodged nearby. I recall her saying that the locals knew that BP was a centre for some sort of top secret war work and some of them probably put two and two together based on the kind of people who were employed there, but security was very tight and people didn't ask questions.
Security on the site itself was very tight. I remember her saying, that she didn't necessarily know what other teams in the same hut or even the same room were working on. You didn't ask questions.
The security habit was very engrained. Years later my M-I-L was still very circumspect in talking about her wartime experiences. -
Message 29
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Monday, 21st November 2011
At 9pm tonight (21st Nov) on Channel4 there is "Britain's Greatest Codebreaker" about Alan Turing.
-
Message 30
Posted by mismatched (U14242423) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
My Mother worked as one of the radio operators who listened to and recorded the German cyphers. She knew that they were listening to German stations and that it was a cypher, that was all. She did not know that the information was sent to Bletchley, it was always collected by an army motor cyclist. Because she was good at her job she never got promoted.
She had no idea about the work at Bletchley until the information was published 30 years later.
About 10 years ago someone from the IWM came to interview my Father, a fighter pilot, for the archives. He was very interested in my Mothers memories
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